A Terrifying Prospect: The Loss of the U.S. Army in Iraq

We lost in Vietnam and we will probably lose in Iraq. Plain and simple.

 

No way on the first outcome and not a chance on the latter outcome despite Harry's prediction!

What happens to Iraq long term depends upon Iraq but we will have won our part and given them the opportunity to take it from there.

 

I will say that the U.S. was not defeated in that we were not forced to surrender, in that sense you are correct. We did leave without victory however.

I agree it is up to the Iraqis to decide for themselves what kind of government they will have. I still don't think we should have invaded Iraq in the first place, and that makes a positive outcome questionable.

 

We LOST the war in Viet Nam. Don't you think it's time for you to get over it?

 

Fall of Saigon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War


Chaos, unrest, and panic ensued as hysterical South Vietnamese officials and civilians scrambled to leave Saigon. Martial law was declared. American helicopters began evacuating South Vietnamese, U.S. and foreign nationals from various parts of the city and from the U.S. embassy compound. Operation Frequent Wind had been delayed until the last possible moment, because of U.S. Ambassador Graham Martin's belief that Saigon could be held and that a political settlement could be reached. "Frequent Wind" was arguably the largest helicopter evacuation in history. It began on April 29, in an atmosphere of desperation, as hysterical crowds of Vietnamese vied for limited seats. Martin pleaded with Washington to dispatch $700 million in emergency aid to bolster the regime and help it mobilize fresh military reserves. But American public opinion had long soured on this conflict halfway around the world.

In the U.S., South Vietnam was perceived as doomed. President Gerald Ford gave a televised speech on April 23, declaring an end to the Vietnam War and all U.S. aid. "Frequent Wind" continued around the clock, as North Vietnamese tanks breached defenses on the outskirts of Saigon. The song "White Christmas" was broadcast, as the final signal for withdrawal. In the early morning hours of April 30, the last U.S. Marines evacuated the embassy by helicopter, as civilians swamped the perimeter and poured into the grounds. Many of them had been employed by the Americans and were left to their fate.

On April 30, 1975, VPA troops overcame all resistance, quickly capturing key buildings and installations. A tank crashed through the gates of the Presidential Palace and at 11:30 a.m. local time with the NLF flag raised above it. Thieu's successor, President Duong Van Minh, attempted to surrender, but VPA Colonel Bui Quang Than informed him that he had nothing left to surrender. Minh then issued his last command, ordering all South Vietnamese troops to lay down their arms.

The Communists had attained their goal: they had toppled the Saigon regime. But the cost of victory was high. In the past decade alone, one Vietnamese in every ten had been a casualty of war. Nearly a million and a half killed, three million wounded. Vietnam had been a tormented land, and its ordeal was not over.

"Though American equipment still stocked Saigon's markets, the Americans were gone. They counted nearly 60,000 dead and more than 300,000 wounded. It was their first defeat. The promised end of the tunnel had brought not light but a new uncertainty, new questions: what was America's role in the world? What were the lessons of Vietnam?"[109]

 

This describes events that took place in 1975 - over two years after American forces had left Viet Nam per the terms of the Paris Peace Accords of 1973. Even before that - starting in 1969 - we'd withdrawn most of our military forces as part of the Vietnamization program. We had no warriors in Viet Nam left to fight the enemy in 1975! The US Marines - along with others - there in 1975 were merely part of the normal embassy security and other functions associated with the diplomatic mission. There are a handful of images of those final days that seem to define the whole of it as if it were a major military defeat of America. Some are even incorrectly identified which, of course, matters only to purists! The Communists enjoy taking credit for our "defeat" even though it never happened. These events actually describe the tragic and unexpected defeat of South Viet Nam - not America - by North Viet Nam. This followed North Viet Nam's blatant violations of the treaty and their continued support from their Communist big brother. The Communist could never be trusted to keep any agreement. I consider that a diplomatic failure and note that we did essentially force South Viet Nam to sign the treaty against their objections. They rightly knew the Communist would not keep their word. In the end, there's no doubt South Viet Nam fell rather quickly but there were many cases of fierce fighting on their part. Many fought to the last hour. We didn't get much news about that. With some resupply and encouragement they could have turned the tide earlier in the North's assault. But once major retreat started it was hard to stop the panic and desire to save one's own family. I feel great sorrow for all the suffering that followed this defeat as well as that which passed before and in which our own were involved. Yet none of it equates to America's "first defeat". It was, however, very disappointing to many of us that America did not intercede but watched from afar with little concern for the consequences to Viet Nam where we had before promised to "pay any price".

 

Yeah, the sanctions they imposed are killing us.

 

If you wish to be taken in a myth perpetuated by liberal anti war defeatists and aided by the media, go ahead.

I'll stick to the truth and actual history.

 

I'm with you dragonfly. I was all for going after the Taliban for their complicity in 9/11. I was against invading Iraq. My original view has proven the wise one.

Why is it that I am always right?

 

I too am appalled at the waste of so many lives. However, I count the Vietnamese as human beings as well. Do you? Over 1.4 million military personnel were killed in the war (only 6% were members of the United States armed forces), while estimates of civilian fatalities range up to 2 million. Do you care about that? Does God care or does He only count American causalities?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

 

I am absolutely amazed that anyone can think we didn't lose the war in Vietnam. The governmental leaders said so. We didn't keep a non-communist regime in South Vietnam. South Vietnam no longer exists, and the country was reunified under communist rule, despite the cost to the US.

 

If it makes you happy to believe in myths, go ahead.

A truce is not a loss. Any moron should be able to see that.

The North Vietnamese did actually defeat the South Vietnamese. We had no troops in the country at that time.

 

The war was lost to Communist North Viet Nam by non-Communist South Viet Nam. The US military was not involved in that defeat. We were long gone from Viet Nam when it happened. We did not lose that war. We decided to stop pursuing it, negotiated a treaty with all parties which we forced the South Vietnamese to sign, and then completed an orderly withdrawal of our forces in compliance with the treaty. By this means we extracted ourselves from the war to satisfy the anti-war voices of the time. We chose to ignore our promise to "pay any price" because the price got a bit higher than we had the fortitude to tolerate.

The terms of that treaty called for free national elections in all of Viet Nam. But the North continued to receive help from their allies and repeatedly violated the Paris Peace Accords of 1973. They never had any intention of acting honorably and lying was not a problem for them. The South did not receive our help in their final fight for survival as an emerging democracy. They did the best they could against a never ending offense by the North. Many of them died bravely fighting for their freedom in the final weeks of the war. The country was not reunified by free elections reflecting the will of the people. It was overtaken by Communist force backed by the super powers Communists. It was forced upon the people of the South just as it had been upon the people of the North a quarter century before.

Vietnamese wanted to free of colonialism but did not and still have not embraced Communism. The latter will eventually fail in Viet Nam. The victory of 1975 is just another event in the long road to freedom in Viet Nam.

In 1975 we decided to do nothing more to help them. All we did was help evacuate those we could - an admirable plan that degenerated into chaos under the situation - and then take in many refugees as people fled what they knew would be oppression and persecution at the hands of the Communists. At least we did show some compassion for their plight if not out of guilt for not enforcing the treaty we had forced them to sign. We didn't do everything we should have the way we should have but we did not lose the war in Viet Nam.

It's not that difficult to understand.

 

You didn't address this to me but I'd like to reply anyway because I do really care about Viet Nam and Vietnamese and often pray for them as I count myself blessed for what we have in America and I wish they could have had in Viet Nam.

Many South Vietnamese soldiers died in the war in Viet Nam and many suffered greatly after the end of the war in 1975. I am very much aware of this!

During the time we fought in Viet Nam we weren't fighting the Vietnamese people in general - we were fighting the Communist forces of the DRV and PRG as yet another step in our struggle against the Communist idelogy that was, and still is, such a threat to us.

The war in Viet Nam was not a civil war in the sense that it was just between Vietnamese - the Vietnamese did not really care to fight amongst themselves despite some substle cultural differences between North, Central, and South. All the really wanted was to be free of colonialism. That struggle started long before World War II but gained tremendous momentum afterwards once the hold France had was disturbed by the Japanese invasion and subsequent removal. In that process the Communist managed to gain support primarily in the North which had lagged behind some of the cultural improvements made in the South. The South had enjoyed a bit better status in the French empire while many workers for the plantations were contracted from the North by rather unscrupulous means and into rather harsh working conditions. The message of Commuism always appeals to the "lower working class" of oppressed agrerian workers because they promise liberation. For this reason it took hold in the North and was embraced as a liberation from the colonial chains to France. The "liberation", of course, brings something entirely different and probably worse than the former.

But the Viet Nam war was one of aggresion by the North upon the people of the South when the South decided to take a different course of action in their emerging freedom. Certainly there was some political manuvering and involvement of super powers on both sides. Not all things were always as honest as they should have been but, for our part, the intentions were good, honorable, and consistent with our stand against Commusim and our desire to assist others in attaining their liberty. We weren't perfect but we were on the correct side and need not apologize for it.

There never was a general uprising in the South to support the Commuist. That didn't happen during the war, during Tet 1968, during the end of the war in 1975, nor since. At every point the people attempted to escape the grip of Commusism. In 1954 the flow was from North to South. In 1975 the people of the South fled the Commuist. During and after 1975 the people risked life to flee Viet Nam for their freedom. People from the North flowed into the South to enjoy and profit from the better standard of living and opportunities therein. Very few have every gone the other way. The people never embraced Commuism but they have been made prisoners of it by aggressive force. The big brothers the North of Viet Nam were key players in that and well pleased with the result.

 

We withdraw all our troops and never returned. Our enemy occupied the country. What in your distorted view represents losing a war? Did Germany lose WW2? Did England loose the Revolutionary war? Or did thery just sign a truce?