a thread started - so here it is

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Jan 4, 2012.

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  1. agedman

    agedman
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    On another thread Benjamin stated:

    "Oh, I think you are totally full of mud in your purely rhetorical old hat responses that don't use one scripture in your so called "refute" of the scriptures I already posted.

    I'm busy now, but I might try to get back to some of your more obvious mistakes such as declaring inability to seek God later. Although, shouldn't be highjacking this tread with all that; why don't you open another tread, I'd be glad to post you a few scriptures to the contrary which show God commands us to seek Him and how that command is not just His idea pulling our pre-determined legs."



    So, here is the tread and the offer to post in support of his view to his heart's content.

    Remember, Benjamin, you are to support your view with scriptures that are in the context of surrounding verses. Not just pull them out of context like I showed you certainly did.

    Why don't you start with scriptures that would support the ability of anybody, anywhere, at anytime, in any condition to seek Christ without Christ first having placed the need of salvation into that person's heart.

    In doing so, be sure to refute such verses as:

    found in Matthew:

    Matt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.


    Which is also found in Luke:

    Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

    John put it this way:

    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Paul stated:

    1 Cor 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God.
     
  2. OldRegular

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    Don't hold your breath while you wait agedman!
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    :thumbs::applause::thumbs: Yes you did..each verse was out of context,so in reality they were not according to biblical teaching.
    The thing is...these same verses might be repeated here as he has nothing else.....
     
  4. Benjamin

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    :laugh:
    Let’s get something straight here, Mr. Question Beggar, ;) I don’t refute scripture, I refute your determinist’ interpretations of those scriptures. In this case how your determinist interpretations lead to a conclusion that the light of the Word of Christ I spoke of in the other tread is being portrayed by your doctrine as only darkness for all but the pre-selected few. So why don’t you start by explaining how your scriptures prove the Gospel message is only for those who have been pre-determined to be able to hear the truth and all others have been pre-determined to be blind to them and without hope because those Words are given in darkness. Then after my workout tonight and a few other things I got to do I’ll come back and fix you up.

     
    #4 Benjamin, Jan 4, 2012
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  5. Iconoclast

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    [QUOTEthose who say God’s light is full of darkness for others.

    ][/QUOTE]

    Yes...you mean like Moses....
    When it comes to the grace of God.....Moses says that God gave light to His people....and yet the same light was darkness to the unbelievers....
    same with Divine truth...some welcome it ..some remain in darkness.

    To speak against the truth of God's electing grace does not show any evidence of scriptural light.
     
    #5 Iconoclast, Jan 4, 2012
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  6. preacher4truth

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    Excellent points and wonderful insight. Perhaps Benjamin should learn Coptic, or perhaps he speaks it fluently? If I'm over in Egypt to see the pyramids, I'll look him up. He'll be the guy "in the dark." :laugh: :thumbsup:
     
    #6 preacher4truth, Jan 5, 2012
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  7. quantumfaith

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    "I don’t refute scripture, I refute your determinist’ interpretations of those scriptures." (Benjamin)

    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  8. JesusFan

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    Which is a cute way of saying that a person gets saved by exercising his own free will and faith in jesus, as he is the one thatsaves himself, as its NOT the Will of God that saved him, but will of man!


    Again, subtle denying the biblical truth that we are dead in our sins, not free in ourselves to even decided for Christ, and that ONLY God Himself can save a wretch like me, as I was once lost, and God found me!
     
  9. Benjamin

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    The post sparked agedman to take offense, reply, and brought forth claims that he has unquestionably refuted it after trying to twist a few scriptures around to do so:

    The above post was originally meant to back up a question to "asleysdad" how or if he would be honestly presenting the Gospel to his children as he knew it:

     
    #9 Benjamin, Jan 5, 2012
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  10. convicted1

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    Awwww, shucks, you ratted us out. Shame on you Brother. Don't go around and tell everyone....shhhh! :laugh: Yep that's the way salvation works. God asks us if its okay for Him to save us, and we then have every right to say yea or nay(tongue firmly in cheek).


    God resiseth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble. When He calls, if we won't humble ourselves, He will pass us by.
     
  11. Benjamin

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    1. Why am I not surprised that you would jump at the chance to proclaim the Gospel is not a genuine offer to all mankind? Because, it is your typical MO that I mentioned you do just a week ago. That’s why.

    2. That temporary literal cloud from the OT has nothing to do with the Gospel being withheld spoken of in the NT but was for the purpose of protection of God’s people. Nice try.
     
  12. Benjamin

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    Put your pompoms away; Iconoclast' shows no “insight” at all, it doesn’t even apply to the subject of the discussion.
     
  13. Benjamin

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    I was speaking to a professed believer about a bout being schooled in a false doctrine. Nothing out of context there.

    Here is context for you: (Joh 1:9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

    You’ve shown nothing out of context here.



    It is you that are disputing the scripture I presented. See above. You’ve shown nothing out context here.


    First, I have no disagreement that all will be given light, but that promise would mean nothing if that light were not sufficient for salvation, nor would the promise be genuine, and without responsibility of the creature to respond to that light what would God’s judgment be based on???

    Second, your determinist definition of man being forcibly drawn while kicking and screaming while you claim the specially selected few drawn differently in that way sounds more like rape that God’s plan of salvation.

    And you’ve shown nothing out of context here.

    My view is that the light is sufficient for all because Christ gave Himself for whosoever will believe in love of the truth. Your erroneous claim of being out of context is doesn’t even make the least bit of sense.

    All men have free will and the responsibility to respond and that ability is certainly supported by the scriptures.

    God’s command for man to seek Him is not an empty statement. God does not lie, never did!

    (Pro 28:5) Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

    (Psa 14:2) The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

    2Ch 15:2) And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

    (2Ch 15:12) And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;

    (2Ch 15:13) That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

    (2Ch 30:18) For a multitude of the people, even many of Ephraim, and Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet did they eat the passover otherwise than it was written. But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, The good LORD pardon every one

    (2Ch 30:19) That prepareth his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary.

    (Ezr 7:10) For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.
     
  14. Benjamin

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    Your claim that whosoever will means whosoever is determined is false, begging the question, unsupported and fallacious. Context? Those that do His commandments have the right to take of the tree of life and salvation is never of works, which leaves one thing…coming by faith (not pre-election selection; remember that).

    (Rev 22:14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    A good reason to believe in love of the truth instead of making excuses about having to be forced to believe.

    And you have failed miserably to show that verse used out of context with your fallacious claim.




    I think not:
    (1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

    (Joh 1:9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.


    Rhetoric, not worth a response.

    The light spoken of in John1 is the Word of God which bring all men the Gospel.


    Begging the question.


    Paul didn’t say to filter everything through Calvinist determinist glasses though, and the spirit of God is far from having to drag men to their salvation.


    Strawman.


    You’ve shown nothing but delusions of victories backed by your own false conclusion.

    You’ve shown nothing being taken out of context as you boastfully claim and my original reply stands.
     
  15. convicted1

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    very well articulated. kudos.
     
  16. Iconoclast

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    Why am I not surprised that you would try to put words in my post that i did not address...
    The free ,genuine, free offer of the gospel is offered everytime gospel truth is declared to sinners. Not all sinners get to hear the gospel however. Many have lived and died and gone onto judgement for their sins. Many have been drawn effectually by God to salvation.
    Your failure to recognise that both things are true at the same time leads you to sinister conclusions about those of us who love the free and sovereign grace of God.





    2. That temporary literal cloud from the OT has nothing to do with the Gospel being withheld spoken of in the NT but was for the purpose of protection of God’s people. Nice try.
    [/QUOTE]

    I used that to illustrate that the same light given to the believers....was darkness to the unbelievers. i am well aware of the purpose of it...that is why i said;
    it is the same exact principle that a sovereign God...the potter...has all rights to the clay...making some vessels unto honour,some to dishonour;
    Paul says this after saying he endures all things for the elect sake....

    he says this in that there were some who used carnal ideas to deny God's word...which is the...MO...of ......some here:wavey:
    14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

    15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
    This is carnal imaginations, humanistic philosophy of those who are enemies of the cross


    17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

    18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

    19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
     
    #16 Iconoclast, Jan 5, 2012
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  17. Iconoclast

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    In your mind.....you try to do that...but in reality you really never address the verses offered...much less refute anything.
     
  18. marke

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    I'm with you, Bro. Ben. Calvinists don't seem to understand the heart of God at all. Why did God repent that He had made man? Because His heart was grieved over their sin. Calvinism cannot explain the grief of God any more than they can explain His desire that none of the wicked would persist in their wickedness in spite of His overtures to save them.
     
  19. Iconoclast

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  20. quantumfaith

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    You KNOW where I stand.... not in agreement with YOU.
     
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