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A universalist thread

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by menageriekeeper, Dec 26, 2010.

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  1. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Cool beans! Thank you for answering, for studying, and for sharing what you've learned with us. It is appreciated.
     
    #61 Gina B, Dec 28, 2010
  2. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    I've been blessed... And I've worked hard.

    It is difficult to explain a class like the one Bruce Ware leads, where the student is expected to read a theology book per week, then come to class prepared to discuss that work at a doctoral level, in the original languages if that is what is required. He never gives input before assigning the book as to whether it is good or garbage, expects the student to figure it out, and starts with a quiz to see if they have.

    16 week course, 16 cutting-edge theology books... Each between an inch and 2 inches thick. Right up my alley!
     
    #62 glfredrick, Dec 28, 2010
  3. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Nice resume, GL! :thumbs:

    Let me stop here long enough to note that I have been remiss in posting the translation name of the scripture I’ve posted. I only realized this when I searched for a scripture I knew was in the KJV and couldn’t find it, only to figure out I was searching my ESV. :rolleyes: I’ll try to do better.

    Let me make a note about the quotes. They aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing. I delete a set and the board (or something) is putting them back in automatically. Therefore there are two quote boxes for every response instead of one long quote.

    Back to the OP:

    Universalists don’t deny that people who reject Christ on this earth will be punished, only that the punishment need not last forever. Thus the judgement spoken about in this passage will be carried out and complete before the judged can again “look for him”.
    Two things come to mind.

    1) Nothing in this passage suggests any length of time that the rich man might suffer, only that he was and didn’t want his family similarly punished.
    2) Nothing in the passage indicates that Lazarus had any faith in God whatsoever. Only that he received “evil things” in his life. Almost as if Lazarus had suffered his “punishment” in this life. (and oh the things that line of reasoning brings to mind!)

    Perhaps, this passage isn’t the best we could use to set a doctrine of eternal punishment on?
    Not written in the book of life at this point of final judgement, says nothing about whether or not there is another chance for man to believe after death. And to my mind, we aren’t ever told exactly who (humans) or what(angels, etc) might have their “names” written in the book of Life. Of all the topics we are given little information about, this is one of the big ones. That’s off topic however. At this point in human history (standing at the brink of the lake of fire), however, I’ll give the point that there is no longer any chance of salvation. Besides this text, is there any that suggests that salvation is only for this lifetime? (yes, I already know “today is the day of salvation” but that doesn’t exclude a non-eternal punishment or salvation after death, it only suggests that it is better to accept now and avoid the punishment altogether)
    I can’t comment on the RC or the Mormons as I haven’t directly researched their beliefs in this area. However, Paul references being “baptized for the dead” during his arguments for a bodily resurrection. Makes me wonder if there was something that didn’t get passed down to us?
     
    #63 menageriekeeper, Dec 28, 2010
  4. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Menageriekeeper...


    Regarding "Universalism", thats just nonsense. The scriptures are clear that some will be lost, and some will be saved. Some will believe, and some wont.

    Regarding people who have never heard, there are none of those.

    In 1st John the scriptures inform us that every person who comes into the world will recieve the revelation of the gospel. The scriptures tell us that "light" has come into the world, and that light is Christ and that Christ...

    I believe that "every man" that comes into the world means just that.

    Every person who comes into this world. From Adam to every person alive today.

    And the early chapters of Romans proclaim the same truth regarding this issue. The truth there is that none have an excuse, whether they have heard from a christian wittness or not.

    To all of those millions who..according to some..supposedly "have never heard the gospel" (missionaries didnt get to them for centuries, they lived on little islands, etc), God says they have.

    It wont be as clear, and as full, a revelation as we have now, but it will be a God ordained revelation to these people, directly to their heart and conscience, and it will contain gospel truth that they can turn to, while abandoning the false ideas they have held to.

    They will understand that the wind isnt God, the sun isnt God, the totem pole isnt God, the lightning in the sky isnt God, etc etc.

    God created all those things.

    They will be given the understanding that turning from those superstitions, and turning to faith and trust in their creator (thats the only revelation they have) is their only hope.



    The problem of babies and the mentally challenged is no problem.

    Almighty God will do what is right regarding them. He is just and loving. We dont have to worry about them.

    God bless.

    AIC
     
    #64 Alive in Christ, Dec 29, 2010
  5. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    I can't wait to use this over in the C/A debates. :D

    However, if as you quoted, Christ gives light to every man and also wills that none should perish, doesn't that lend credence to the idea that in the end all will be saved/believe?
     
    #65 menageriekeeper, Dec 29, 2010
  6. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Menageriekeeper...

    No. The scriptures are clear that some will reject the offer. They will choose to turn from what they have been offered...faith alone...and choose that wich is false. Pimarily...pridefull self effort.

    When it says the He "wills" that all be saved, I see that as meaning He desires that all be saved, and all can be saved... not that He will make sure, or cause all to be saved.
     
    #66 Alive in Christ, Dec 29, 2010
  7. charles_creech78

    charles_creech78 New Member

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    Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. :thumbs:
     
    #67 charles_creech78, Dec 29, 2010
  8. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Charles, I hadn't gotten to that scripture yet, because to my mind it is a prophecy concerning the future (after the final judgement) new earth and New Jerusalem. Can you offer a different opinion on when that scripture might apply to man?
     
    #68 menageriekeeper, Dec 30, 2010
  9. charles_creech78

    charles_creech78 New Member

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    That is your mind! Show me that it is a prophecy for the future?Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
    Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
    Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
    What covenant are we under? The covenant of Grace! It is now!
     
    #69 charles_creech78, Dec 30, 2010
  10. charles_creech78

    charles_creech78 New Member

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    They have all heard and the gospel has already been preached to all nations of the earth! Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
    Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
    Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
    Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
    Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
    Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
    Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
    Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
    Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
    Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest (JESUS CHRIST)unto them that asked not after me.
    Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. Answer your own ? that you asked me! How can you see Jesus when you don't know him? How is it the future? You have to know Jesus Christ to get to see New Jerusalem. God bless. Its now!
     
    #70 charles_creech78, Dec 30, 2010
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Amen! and Amen! It is now!
     
    #71 kyredneck, Dec 30, 2010
  12. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Future prophecy because future tense of the verbs are used. "Shall know" not "do know" and "will" not "has".

    How many of your neighbors have the knowledge of God written in their hearts, right at this moment? IF they all do, why bother any longer with "go ye"?

    I can understand this a future fullfilment of universalism, but not a present one. Is that what you intended?
     
    #72 menageriekeeper, Dec 30, 2010
  13. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Some more scripture to ponder on:

    Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
    Eph 1:8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
    Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
    Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

    (ESV Bolding and itallics mine)

    How can all things be united in Him on heaven and earth if some things, especially some things on earth are going to be destroyed?
     
    #73 menageriekeeper, Dec 30, 2010
  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ....Cornelius...a devout man...that feared God...who gave much...and prayed... Acts 10:1,2

    Yea, he showed the work of the law written in his heart. He was lacking nothing eternal wise. Now he was in want to understand just how it was that he came about to be this way, and it was God's good pleasure to have Peter preach the good news to him so that he would understand and receive the unspeakable joy and the peace that passeth understanding that comes from a personal, timely, relationship with his Lord. This relationship, this knowledge, was in no way necessary to procure his eternal security, for his Saviour had secured that for him on the cross. No, hearing the gospel of his salvation was for Cornelius's benefit in this time world, not a necessity for his eternal security.

    ....our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Tim 1:10

    It is our Saviour who abolished death. The gospel does not impart life and immortality, it tells of it.

    Cornelius was already in possession of life and immortality. Hearing and believing the gospel was for his well being in this temporal world.



    From Paul's address to the Jews at Antioch:

    16 And Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken
    26 Brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and those among you that fear God, to us is the word of this salvation sent forth.
    43 Now when the synagogue broke up, many of the Jews and of the devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas; who, speaking to them, urged them to continue in the grace of God. Acts 13

    I suggest that Cornelius was almost for certain a Jewish proselyte.



    And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him. Acts 10:34,35

    Peter never announced something new here; no, he spoke something that had always been. God doesn't change. He had never been a respecter of persons, and He had always had a people from all nations, Jew and Gentile.
     
    #74 kyredneck, Dec 30, 2010
  15. charles_creech78

    charles_creech78 New Member

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    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Like it is written they have all heard but not obeyed. Look at what is written in red in that scripture I gave you. I never knew you. Where did they not get to know him at. In a free pardon and remission of there sin. They denied him and wanted nothing to do with him. For they all know and now have no cloak for there sins. Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
    Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
    Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
    Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.
    Joh 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
    Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. Honor and glory to God forever! God bless.
     
    #75 charles_creech78, Dec 30, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2010
  16. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Could you elaborate on what you mean by "no clock for their sins"?
     
    #76 menageriekeeper, Dec 30, 2010
  17. charles_creech78

    charles_creech78 New Member

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    No covering! Without excuse! (Cloak)
     
    #77 charles_creech78, Dec 30, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2010
  18. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    LOL, Charles. Cloak/Clock Dylexia can be challenging at times! I get it now.
     
    #78 menageriekeeper, Dec 30, 2010
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Consider: // ... to unite all things in him ... \\

    'All' means each and every member of the given set.
    What set is given here? Without additional context, the most
    obvious set is "things united in Messiah Jesus'. That would
    NOT include things destroyed on earth before the uniting.
    A study of the context might show other meanings of what set
    of things/people/etc. is being disucssed here.
     
    #79 Ed Edwards, Dec 30, 2010
  20. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Ed, are you saying that since the broad veiw of this passage is a greeting to the church at Ephesus(believers), that the narrower view must be constrained to the set of people(believers) the passage is directed too?
     
    #80 menageriekeeper, Dec 31, 2010
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