A verse I have yet to hear a defence for

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Skandelon, Jan 30, 2003.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    I still haven't heard how Arminians fanagal this verse to fit into their system. Can anyone help me out?

    Sam
     
  2. The_Narrow_Road

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    John 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

    I'm not Arminian, yet I am not Calvinist either. Every one is given the free will to choose life or death, blessing and cursing. The Scriptures go on to say choose life that ye might live.
    It is by God's grace through our faith which is still by God's grace love and mercy.
     
  3. npetreley

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    Okay, I think I can answer for the Arminian view:

    1. Not in red ink...wait, no, this one is in red ink. Scratch that.

    2. John 3:16?

    3. Precious daughter in hell?

    Never mind, I give up.
     
  4. TheTravelingMinstrel

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    the words 'every' and 'all' men/man are the arminists/freewillies main verses they use for support.

    You must realize that they where speaking to jews and the Jews where God's chosen nation and Gentiles where lost.

    But the new convent was spread to the Gentiles as well.

    So, when it says 'all/every', it means, not only jews, but men of all nations.

    The old testiment Israel, being God's chosen nation mirrors the new testiment church as being God chosen people.

    Just because scriptures say 'choose' Christ and whatnot, does not say that they will.

    Scriptures do not say that man, on his own power, has the ability to choose God. It does say, however, that we are slaves to our sin nature, which shows that we DO NOT have the ability to choose.
     
  5. Sularis

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    actually sam thats a very easy verse

    But ill post the mass theology at a later time if not one actually does it
     
  6. 4study

    4study
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    And who is "Old Testament Isreal"?

    Which group of Jews was He speaking to? The elect Jews or the non-elect Jews? Both?

    The Gentiles were lost? :confused:
     
  7. sturgman

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    Samuel, I think it has to be your bull... wait, that is a different post. [​IMG]
     
  8. TheTravelingMinstrel

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    And who is "Old Testament Isreal"?

    Which group of Jews was He speaking to? The elect Jews or the non-elect Jews? Both?

    The Gentiles were lost? :confused:
    [/QUOTE]

    Old testiment Israel = Israel in the old testiment.
    Not too hard to figure out.

    Israel being God's chosen nation is a mirror of the new testiment elect.

    um, yeah, God told the isrealites to go slaugher all the surrounding gentiles.

    Arminist view: Oh but wait, that's not fair. God can't do that. I think all the baal worshipers went to heaven because they never got a chance.
     
  9. 4study

    4study
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    TheTravelingMinstrel

    Let me be more specific. Are you refering to every individual Israelite in the 12 tribes? Physical lineage?

    I'm more confused now. "All the surrounding Gentiles"? What about Moab and Edom? God told Israel to leave them alone. And back to your original statement, the "Gentiles were lost". What about Rahab the harlot? What about Ruth (a Moabite)?
     
  10. Skandelon

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    The verse, guys, the verse. How do Arminians handle Jesus' words in this verse?

    If it is so easy, please tell me how you reconcile it with your viewpoint.

    Sam
     
  11. IndpndntBptst

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    That is one of the most horrible statements I have ever read, especially from someone who claims to be a Christian. II Peter 2:12, "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" That text fitly describes you. I sense that you have a very hard heart. You are obviously full of hatred. I could never make a statement like that in 10,000 years. It almost convicts ME to read something like that. The Bible teaches, "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." (1 John 4:8) I will let you figure that out.

    The verses you posted do not teach fatalism. Paul wrote, "Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (I Corinthians 2:8) Over and over again in the Gospels, Jesus is telling His disciples not to tell anyone that He is the Christ. He spoke in parables so the crowds could not understand the meaning of His words. If they had known, they would not have crucified Him! Jesus said time and again, "Mine hour is not yet come." Well, according to you, Jesus could have preached on top of the mountain and nobody would have believed anyway if God did not make them. It was the purpose of God that His Son be put to death. However, in Acts 3:17-19, Peter was preaching to the men of Israel who crucified the Lord of glory, and said, "And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;" And on Pentecost, Peter was preaching to the Jews, and they were pricked in their hearts. 3,000 souls were saved that day.
     
  12. Eric B

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    I think he was just mocking a non-Calvinist poster who was here before, and constantly argued "what if a Calvinist sees their child in Hell; what would God say to them...?"
     
  13. npetreley

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    Thanks, Eric.

    Yes, Eric is correct. This argument was that Calvinism must be wrong because if it were true, we'd find out in heaven that God gleefully sent our precious daughters to hell because he denied them free will and just didn't feel like saving them that day.

    Go figure.
     
  14. Skandelon

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    What exactly do you mean when you say, "they were pricked in their hearts?"

    Were some hearts "pricked" harder than others or were they all "pricked" equally? Why did some believe and others refuse to respond the the "pricking?" Can God fail in his intentions to "woo" someone to himself? How is it the the Holy Spirit's "pricking" power is not effective on some people but is effective on others?

    Sam
     
  15. I Am Blessed 24

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    What exactly do you mean when you say, "they were pricked in their hearts?"

    Were some hearts "pricked" harder than others or were they all "pricked" equally? Why did some believe and others refuse to respond the the "pricking?" Can God fail in his intentions to "woo" someone to himself? How is it the the Holy Spirit's "pricking" power is not effective on some people but is effective on others?
    Sam
    </font>[/QUOTE]Prick: An act or instance of piercing.

    The Holy Spirit does the 'pricking' and today, as well as back then, not everyone is open to His proddings.

    God doesn't fail in anything. He has given us a free will and will never violate that. It is the Holy Spirit's job to 'prick' and our job to respond. It we don't...it is not God who has failed, but us.

    The 'pricking' is effective on those who are willing to listen. It is not effective on those who have hardened their hearts against God or who have said there IS no God.

    I was 'pricked' many times before I understood and surrendered to Jesus. I am so glad that God is a God of second, third, fourth, etc. chances.

    We should never put off getting saved: "And the Lord said, My Holy Spirit shall not always strive with man..." Genesis 6:3

    God does not want anyone to go to hell. He created us for fellowship with Him. God does not send anyone to hell. We choose to go there by refusing the gift that God gave us; His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

    [​IMG]
    Sue
     
  16. Skandelon

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    Sue,

    Where does the bible teach that we have free will and that God won't violate it? Paul's will to kill Christians seemed "violated" to me. We are not born free as you imply, we are born "dead in our sins" and "slaves to unrighteousness". Does that sound "free" to you? No, it is in Christ that we are set free. Our "free will" from birth will never seek or even understand the things of God (Rom. 3:10-12). God Spirit doesn't merely "prick" as you both assert. The Holy Spirit gives us new birth (John 3). Anyone who is a parent knows that being born involves much more than "pricking" it requires the giving of a new life. Not by the choice of the one being born but by the choice of the One creating life.

    I hope that clarifies the scripture for you.
    Sam

    [​IMG]
     
  17. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
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    Sue,
    Where does the bible teach that we have free will and that God won't violate it? Paul's will to kill Christians seemed "violated" to me. We are not born free as you imply, we are born "dead in our sins" and "slaves to unrighteousness". Does that sound "free" to you? No, it is in Christ that we are set free. Our "free will" from birth will never seek or even understand the things of God (Rom. 3:10-12). God Spirit doesn't merely "prick" as you both assert. The Holy Spirit gives us new birth (John 3). Anyone who is a parent knows that being born involves much more than "pricking" it requires the giving of a new life. Not by the choice of the one being born but by the choice of the One creating life.
    I hope that clarifies the scripture for you.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Sam;

    We are born 'dead in our sins'? Why then, does a child go to Heaven, without repenting and calling on the Lord to save him, until he has reached the age of accountability? God does not hold a child accountable until he is old enough to understand and exercise his free will.

    IMHO, God gives us a choice to be saved or not to be saved. He leaves it up to us; otherwise, He would just say "Poof! Everyone in the world is saved." There would be no one in hell.

    When I have a choice, I have free will.

    "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother." Mark 3:35.

    Notice that verse does not say 'all' men shall do the will of God'; but 'whosoever'.

    When Peter was preaching to the jews, the Holy Spirit 'pricked them' (notice I did not say that is allthe Holy Spirit does).

    "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart..." Acts 2:37

    I ask in all humility; who do YOU think was doing the pricking if not the Holy Spirit?

    [​IMG]
    Sue
     
  18. Scott J

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    Calvinism doesn't teach fatalism nor deny man's accountability. Read what Paul wrote in Romans 8 or Ephesians 1.
     
  19. sturgman

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    Does no one else get annoyed that most arminians debate start with IMHO (in My Humble OPINION).

    I point to Spurgeon again,

    "Some of you have so much dust on your bible, that you could write the word damned on it."

    -C H Spurgeon
     
  20. Ray Berrian

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    In light of the mega-Scriptures that speak of God's love as not being disannulled to any human being, God speaking through Luke is affirming that He reveals his truth not to the ' . . . wise . . . . (people of this world,) but reveals His truth unto babes.' [Luke 10:21-22.] Remember, contextually He is speaking about His Divine truth to all human beings that He desires to save in that which we call time.

    The word 'whom' in verse [22] (ho) can be interpreted 'that, what, or which.' Augustine's Latin Vulgate has handed down to us even to the KJV the word, 'whomsoever' in order to perpetuate his 'pick and choose' theology which founded the Roman Catholic Church and is still offered up by modern Calvinists.

    God's revealing of His truth was to the 'babes,' those who are innocent and humble of heart of this world. The word, 'apokalufai' [vs. 22] is in the arost active infinite form and suggests that He will keep on revealing something.

    I believe God is saying, 'I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, that Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast REVEALED them unto babes. Even so, Father for so it seemed good in Thy sight. All things are delivered to Me of My Father; and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to 'what' the Son will keep on REVEALING to him.

    The Son will keep on revealing absolute truth to these 'babes' as written in this manuscript coming from Luke, the doctor.

    ' . . . to whom' is a very bad translation from the Greek, but elevated in Latin from St. Augustine and later by John Calvin. And the word REVEAL means 'to take offthe cover or disclose.' From the base word,(apokalupto).

    The Greek word, babes (nepios) can mean an infant, a simple minded person or an immature Christian.

    MY SUMMARY: No one knows God the Father accept through Jesus and no one knows Jesus except by the Father. Only the simple of heart are going to keep on receiving spiritual truth except humble Christians who have been given this truth as uncovered by the Son, our Savior.

    MY TRANSLATION: "I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, that Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast REVEALED them unto babes; even so, Father for it seemed good in Thy sight. All things are delivered to Me of My Father. And no person knoweth who the Son is but by the Father. And who the Father is except through the Son, and that which the Son will REVEAL to him {meaning a babe in Christ}. Notice the large print REVEALED/REVEAL as to what is being revealed--namely, His truth.

    At least Arminian theologians do not boldly change 'world' to mean just the 'elect,'-no fewer than 20 times; 'whosoever' and 'all' into elect,---at least 16 times; 'every man' into elect or 'everyone' into elect.'-3 times. (borrowed)
     

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