A verse I have yet to hear a defence for

Well stated Ray!

 

Well Stated? If by that you mean OPINION. Where is your proof? I don't get it here. How come you cannot see the whole of scripture?

 

I think the person was merely pointing out that God the Spirit prods the unsaved as in the case of Saul in Acts 9:5. ' . . . it is hard to be recalcitrant/rebellious against the {kenteo} stings or proddings of the Spirit.' (Also, in Acts 26:14)

I think we also all know that Jesus said in John 16:8 that when the Holy Spirit came after Christ's ascension, that God the Spirit would reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of (coming) judgment.

All three of these verses clearly indicates that the Spirit does a work on the mind of the sinner before regeneration. Why would He reprove the world if it was not effectual in the life of the non-Christian?

Especially where the truth of salvation is made evident, God the Spirit is always convicting and convincing people of their need of Christ. He is ever working to reprove the lost of three things. Sin, of His righteousness and of coming judgment.

 

If God is sovereign in the sense that a Calvinist believes, He controls everything and everybody and is the Author of sin. {Remember He controls everything} And if He is the Author of sin then we are all off the hook. Do what ever you like, because He made us do it. In that He made us do it, we as His created beings are not responsible to Him.

I do think you will find it difficult to convince God of this concept at the Great White Throne Judgment. [Revelation 20:11-15.

 

You said-
If God is sovereign in the sense that a Calvinist believes, He controls everything and everybody and is the Author of sin.

This is faulty logic, you jumped from Sovereign, to control, to Author of evil. That is a huge jump. Did God Purpose sin? Yes. Without sin you have a naked man, a naked woman, a snake in a garden. You do not have the things that we find most precious. Proverbs says that "Everything has been created for a purpose, even the evil for the day of destruction." By your line of thought this verse cannot exsist. Because if God created the evil for the day of destruction, then God is wrong.

You said-
{Remember He controls everything} And if He is the Author of sin then we are all off the hook. Do what ever you like, because He made us do it. In that He made us do it, we as His created beings are not responsible to Him.

First of all He is not the author of sin, though he did purpose it for his greater glorification. Jesus was ordained to die on the cross before time began, yet if God did not purpose sin, why would Christ die on the cross? Second, your statement is faulty becaue you asume that if God justifies with no work by man even to believe then justified men can sin however and whenever they want. That Christian that does that is like the easter bunny, big foot, they do not exsist. When God justifies, he also sanctifies, and he will also glorify. A christian cannot remain in sin and be happy, Read Romans 8.

Yous aid-
I do think you will find it difficult to convince God of this concept at the Great White Throne Judgment. [Revelation 20:11-15.

Since this is wrong I will not have too. God keeps me until that day, and I can rejoice in that. You however have to figure out if you really meant that prayer you prayed when you believed, (or did you?) I don't know?

 

Geting back to the word "all" and "world", lets let the greatest exegete of Scripture explain:

"Hence we see the childish folly of those who represent this passage(1 Timothy 2:4) to be opposed to predestination. "If God" say they, "wishes all men indiscriminately to be saved, it is false that some are predestined by his eternal purpose to salvation, and others to perdition." They might have had some ground for saying this, if Paul were speaking here about individual men; although even then we should not have wanted the means of replying to their argument; for, although the: will of God ought not to be judged from his secret decrees, when he reveals them to us by outward signs, yet it does not therefore follow that he has not determined with himself what he intends to do as to every individual man.

But I say nothing on that subject, because it has nothing to do with this passage; for the Apostle simply means, that there is no people and no rank in the world that is excluded from salvation; because God wishes that the gospel should be proclaimed to all without exception. Now the preaching of the gospel gives life; and hence he justly concludes that God invites all equally to partake salvation. But the present discourse relates to classes of men, and not to individual persons; for his sole object is, to include in this number princes and foreign nations. That God wishes the doctrine of salvation to be enjoyed by them as well as others, is evident from the passages already quoted, and from other passages of a similar nature. Not without good reason was it said, "Now, kings, understand," and again, in the same Psalm,

"I will give thee the Gentiles for an inheritance, and the ends of the earth for a possession." (Psalm 2:8-10.)

In a word, Paul intended to shew that it is our duty to consider, not what kind of persons the princes at that time were, but what God wished them to be. Now the duty arising: out of that love which we owe to our neighbor is, to be solicitous and to do our endeavor for the salvation of all whom God includes in his calling, and to testify this by godly prayers."

John Calvin Commentary on 1 Timothy

(all emphasis mine)

 

Sorry I took so long - I think Ray did it - but I want to try and do something a wee simpler

"I praise you, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was well-pleasing in your sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one know the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." --Jesus of Nazareth

First part of verse is answered by:
1 Corinthians 1:18-25 - simply put God is using things that appear foolish or childish to conventional wisdom - and Matthew 18:3 and 19:13-14 hopefully give you an start as to why

Second half of the verse - the call - to the Calvinist the effectual call to everyone else the universal call

There are far more stumpier verses than that one; but I hope I answered your question sufficiently

 

Sturgman,

The quote you are referring to is something like, 'The Lord hath made all things for Himself even the wicked for the day of evil.' God has bound the will of no one. People during this life either accept Christ and His saving benefits or they reject Him. Those who refuse Him remain wicked and He deals with them at the judgment or as the Bible says, "the Great White Throne Judgment. [Revelation chapter 20] This Old Testament verse is not saying that God autocratically makes, as it were, a 'shopping list' of those He decides to damn. And as I stated before, if the Lord picks His lost ones, sinners are off the hook because He has not even made them responsible to Almighty God. How could a God of justice pull this kind of eternal caper. According to this view these poor souls did not have a choice in diverting the train to Hell.

Another verse that will interest you is Isaiah 45:7. 'I form light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I the Lord do all these things.'

 

Do you think you can ever reach the point where you confine your arguments to what the opposition is saying and stop making this stuff up?

And when you look it up, make sure you research the difference between what "evil" meant for the readers of modern english used in the KJV, and what "evil" means today.

 

The preacher in me cringes at this use of scripture. The second quote is from Deuteronomy, and yet is quoted as if it follows John's words.
Context context context!

 

*sigh* no obviously you're right God must do everything that makes perfect sense to us now - because we should be able to logically work it all out - we should be able to understand God

What gives God greater glory?
- Him going voila and setting the sky ablaze with Holy fire - and stating I am God believe in me and be saved
- or a baby born in a manger and being crucified saying I am God believe in me and be saved

Wow that baby sure makes more sense to me

Because God wants more then just belief - He wants belief without proof - He wants faith - when we have faith He then reveals to us mysteries

As to the call section it supports the idea of a single call - the universal - rather then the effectual and the general as well

 

I still haven't heard how Arminians fanagal this verse to fit into their system. Can anyone help me out?

Sam </font>[/QUOTE]My view presented in the post titled "Calvinism Fatal Flaw" answers this passage along with just about every other passage that Calvinists use as proof texts.

Jesus is speaking about his chosen, appointed disciples to whom he chose to reveal His Father. This is not about the salvation of those who believe by faith. This is about those who believe through Christ's personal revealing of himself.

Bro. Bill

 

Solaris, you said-
What gives God greater glory?
- Him going voila and setting the sky ablaze with Holy fire - and stating I am God believe in me and be saved
- or a baby born in a manger and being crucified saying I am God believe in me and be saved


I think both of those give man a lot of glory if man is the determing factor of who is saved. Maybe it is option number three

A baby born to a virgin, lived out the perfect law of God, was crucified to appease the righteous wrath of God that He may save many by his work alone, so that one day every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord, some shall praise Him for His mercy, and some for His justice.

That is Glory!!!

But maybe your right and he will pat me on the back and say "good job, I wasn't sure if you were gonna make it but you pulled it out."

 

The preacher in me cringes at this use of scripture. The second quote is from Deuteronomy, and yet is quoted as if it follows John's words.
Context context context! </font>[/QUOTE]And the fact that the quote is incomplete makes it seem kind of silly. Dang, you mean I was supposed to choose life so that I may live? And here I always thought I was supposed to choose death so that I may live.

Here's the whole quote:

 

Nah at most He'll say "Well done my good and faithful servant"

 

So when God says well done, he is speaking of justification and not of sanctification?

Oh, I get it now, your a legalist when it comes to salvation. So you do something for your salvation. And I certainly hope that you can keep it up too.