A Very Simple Defense

Yelsew, here is the second letter of Peter. Let me see if I can help you understand the context beginning with Chapter 1, verse 1:

I think this pretty much establishes the context as to addressee, subject, and sender.

And with many more words in the first chapter he gives the readers encouragement to makes sure of their "calling and election".

The context continues. You, Us. You, the recipients, the brethren, who have obtained like precious faith, Us, the apostles, me, the apostle. A third element is introduced in this second chapter. They and Them . You and Us are on the same side, the redeemed, the washed, the elect (1 Peter 1:2). They and them on the other side - false teachers, wells without water, clouds carried with a tempest, followers of Balaam and his pernicious ways. Them, those who will be deceived, who have not examined themselves and therefore failed to make their calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:5-10).

All the way from Peter's fist letter to the same group of people, to this second letter, he has taken great pains to mention these as elect of God, these people are not all men
without exception.

This letter was addressed to believers.

God is not willing that any of His elect should perish. That is completely in accord with what Jesus Christ himself said in John 6:39:

So, 2nd Peter 3:9 cannot be used to prove your Universal Salvation or Universal Atonemnent or God Wants All Mankind to be Saved but not all mankind will come to him because not all mankind has faith.

 

Pinoy Baptist, I have NEVER, NO NOT ONCE declared universal salvation! NOT NOW, NEVER!

I do however declare the Atonement brought by Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ to be UNIVERSAL in that the blood of Christ was shed for ALL the sins of the whole world for ALL times.

I have REPEATEDLY AND OFTEN POINTED OUT THAT ATONEMENT DOES NOT EQUAL SALVATION! THOUGH NECESSARY FOR, ATONEMENT IS NOT EQUAL TO SALVATION! ATONEMENT REQUIRES NO FAITH ON MAN'S PART BECAUSE JESUS DID THE ATONEMENT ALL ALONE ALL BY HIMSELF FOR ALL MANKIND!

SALVATION HOWEVER, REQUIRES HUMAN FAITH IN GOD. THERE IS NO SALVATION WITHOUT FAITH!

 

Whoa, Yelsew2, old friend in the board...cut down on the coffee, my man...okay, I take back what I said about Universal Salvation...Let me say it this way, 2 Peter 3:9 cannot be a proof text for Universal Atonement....There is no proof text for it.

 

Pinoy Baptist,
The following scriptures are certainly prooftext for UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT!

[Heb 7:27] he has no need to offer sacrifices every day, as the high priests do, first for their own sins and only then for those of the people; this he did once and for all by offering himself.

[Heb 9:14] How much more will the blood of Christ, who offered himself, blameless as he was, to God through the eternal Spirit, purify our conscience from dead actions so that we can worship the living God.


Christ seals the new covenant with his blood
[Heb 9:15] This (verses 1-14) makes him the mediator of a new covenant, so that, now that a death has occurred to redeem the sins committed under an earlier covenant, those who have been called to an eternal inheritance may receive the promise.
[Heb 9:16] Now wherever a will is in question, the death of the testator must be established;
[Heb 9:17] a testament comes into effect only after a death, since it has no force while the testator is still alive.
[Heb 9:18] That is why even the earlier covenant was inaugurated with blood,
[Heb 9:19] and why, after Moses had promulgated all the commandments of the Law to the people, he took the calves' blood, the goats' blood and some water, and with these he sprinkled the book itself and all the people, using scarlet wool and hyssop;
[Heb 9:20] saying as he did so: This is the blood of the covenant that God has made with you.
[Heb 9:21] And he sprinkled both the tent and all the liturgical vessels with blood in the same way.
[Heb 9:22] In fact, according to the Law, practically every purification takes place by means of blood; and if there is no shedding of blood, there is no remission.
[Heb 9:23] Only the copies of heavenly things are purified in this way; the heavenly things themselves have to be purified by a higher sort of sacrifice than this.
[Heb 9:24] It is not as though Christ had entered a man-made sanctuary which was merely a model of the real one; he entered heaven itself, so that he now appears in the presence of God on our behalf.
[Heb 9:25] And he does not have to offer himself again and again, as the high priest goes into the sanctuary year after year with the blood that is not his own,
[Heb 9:26] or else he would have had to suffer over and over again since the world began. As it is, he has made his appearance once and for all, at the end of the last age, to do away with sin by sacrificing himself.
[Heb 9:27] Since human beings die only once, after which comes judgement,
[Heb 9:28] so Christ too, having offered himself only once to bear the sin of many, will manifest himself a second time, sin being no more, to those who are waiting for him, to bring them salvation.


SUMMARY: CHRIST'S SACRIFICE SUPERIOR TO THE SACRIFICES OF THE MOSAIC LAW
The old sacrifices ineffective

[Heb 10:9] and then he says: Here I am! I am coming to do your will. He is abolishing the first sort to establish the second.
[Heb 10:10] And this will was for us to be made holy by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ made once and for all.

The Law did not cancel the promise

[1 Tim 2:6] [n]who offered himself as a ransom for all.[/b] This was the witness given at the appointed time,
[1 Tim 2:7] of which I was appointed herald and apostle and-I am telling the truth and no lie-a teacher of the gentiles in faith and truth.

[Gal 3:13] Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law by being cursed for our sake since scripture says: Anyone hanged is accursed,
[Gal 3:14] so that the blessing of Abraham might come to the gentiles in Christ Jesus, and so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

The efficacy of Christ's sacrifice
[1 Pet 3:18] Christ himself died once and for all for sins, the upright for the sake of the guilty, to lead us to God. In the body he was put to death, in the spirit he was raised to life,
[1 Pet 3:19] and, in the spirit, he went to preach to the spirits in prison.
[1 Pet 3:20] They refused to believe long ago, while God patiently waited to receive them, in Noah's time when the ark was being built. In it only a few, that is eight souls, were saved through water.
[1 Pet 3:21] It is the baptism corresponding to this water which saves you now-not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience given to God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

[Rev 5:9] They sang a new hymn: You are worthy to take the scroll and to break its seals, because you were sacrificed, and with your blood you bought people for God of every race, language, people and nation
[Rev 5:10] and made them a line of kings and priests for God, to rule the world.

 

Yelsew2:

If your definition of "universal atonement" is atonement for every human being that ever lived, are living, and every will live, then you are way off the mark.

However, if your definition of "universal atonement" is atonement for any man irrespective of skin color, social standing, education, tongue or language, country, civilization, whether ruler or ruled, then you are coming pretty close to the mark, but not there yet.

So, which is it ?

 

Jesus' Atonement for sin includes the sins of every person who has lived, is living or will live! That's the only way that every man who has lived, is living or will live is treated equal by God! God is no respecter of Man....any man! Not one of us is one iota better in God's eyes than another!

Remember Atonement does not equate to Salvation and no man even needs to believe in Atonement for it to be effective for him.

Atonement is what God did for man so that ALL men have exactly the same opportunity for eternal life. God removed from man the penalty that sin brings, and put that penalty in its entirety on His only begotten Son.

I said that man need not even believe in atonement for it to be effective for him. The reason for that is atonement is a divine act. But, man must have faith in the atoner for man to receive Salvation!

Consider Heb 9:15 where it states "sins from a previous covenant". That covers virtually all from Adam to Jesus. Granted, this could be viewed as ONLY THE JEWS! But I think it includes all mankind.

Heb 10:9 "Abolish the first to establish a new" Well if you abolish something to establish something new, you must include those under the old.

1 Peter 3:18-21 Jesus went in the spirit to preach to those in prison and that includes those of Noah's day. That certainly takes in a couple millenniums of people.

Galations 3:13,14 says that Jesus hung on the cross so that the gentiles (non-specific count and non-specific indentification) could come to God like unto Abraham THROUGH FAITH! Gentiles is an ALL INCLUSIVE term describing those who were not JEWS.

1 Tim 2:6 Jesus offered himself, a ransom for ALL!

Pinoy Baptist, Your theology certainly DISAGREES with that of PAUL and PETER.

As for "the mark" I have been SPOT ON for over 4 decades, and it seems you cannot even see the mark!

 

Sorry, Yelsew2, but you have been off the mark for 4 decades. Way, way off the mark. If atonement does not equate with salvation, then what does it equate with ? It is your theology that seems topsy-turvy. So long.

 

Atonement IS removal of the penalty for sin from the sinner by substitution. The penalty is DEATH. Man is no longer bound over to death by sin and can therefore, through FAITH, have everlasting life (SALVATION)!

Atonement is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to enable SALVATION, but it IS NOT SALVATION! NNE is saved by atonement!

SALVATION IS (John 3:18) NOT BEING JUDGED! Recieving Everlasting life (John 3:16)

Without SALVATION through FAITH, ALL unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire, THE SECOND DEATH! (REV 20:15)

DON'T BE IGNORANT MY BROTHER! and so far you have been!

 

My username should say it all...Layman, so I'm sure I'm in over my head here, but I felt compelled to at least bring up these questions.

I know there is danger is ascribing too much to parables, but I wonder why Jesus didn't tell the story of the father hearing of the famine and marching off to snatch the prodigal son from the jaws of starvation?

He could have had the son writhing helplessly in the swine muck, unable to think for himself, unable to think of the father's love, unable to get himself up and start walking back to the father.

Instead Jesus portrays the son as follows:

I will arise and go... I will say I have sinned... I am no more worthy....he arose.

The son knew how well the father treated his servants so he thought it worth trying to come home.

The prodigal was returning when the father saw him afar off and THEN the father ran to him.



Luke 15:17-24
And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put [it] on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on [his] feet:
And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill [it]; and let us eat, and be merry:
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Now I realize that in that same chapter Jesus does tell about the shepherd who goes out to get the one lost sheep out of the hundred, and the woman looking for the lost money.

The money is an inanimate object that obviously doesn't know it's lost, and can't seek to come back to the woman.

The sheep is a dumb creature that probably does want to come home, but is incapable of finding its way.

The son is a thinking, reasoning creature, finally buried in his circumstances enough to realize the error of his ways and return to his Father's love to ask for forgiveness.

Just an interesting chapter, and one that does to some degree make me think that whatever this Mr. Stringer may be right or wrong about, that he simply agrees with Jesus when he states “so does the heavenly Father rejoice in all those who come to Him of their own free will.”

Or is there any argument that Jesus did not mean that the father in the parable represented God and the prodigal son represented us sinners???

 

quote:
The son is a thinking, reasoning creature, finally buried in his circumstances enough to realize the error of his ways and return to his Father's love to ask for forgiveness.

Above you will find the key to answer your question. This parable is speaking of a son; positionally as spoken a child (of God).

To make a carnal man a 'son' prior to regeneration renders the substitutionary death of Christ of no use.

Hope that helps.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

Bro. Dallas,
Are we all not descended from the same root!
Are we all not of Adam?
Are we all not "children", made in the image of God?
Did we ALL as the result of Adam's sin not take our inheritance and squander it?
Are we not all then able to think of "our father" and all the good he does for his servants and long to go home?
Are we not able to pick ourselves up out of the place we are and head in the direction of HOME?
AFTER ALL, the FATHER sends us His immissary (the Holy Spirit to make us mindful of "Home". However, he does not send his armed chariots to force us to return home, but leaves the returning part up to us.

 

yelsew2,
Our sonship is by adoption. The son in the parable is a son; the adoption is not fulfilled yet until the resurrection (Rom.8 and groaning with the whole creation).

We are not born sons of God, or else we have at best two seedism, at worse Universalism.

I could handle it if I thought you believed two seedism, there is more implication of this in scripture. But universalism?

Also, re-read your post, look at it particularly in the last statement. You are not refuting the order of regeneration/faith, but showing it exactly as it is.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

An emmissary does not regenerate those to whom it is sent! But instead carries a message from the one who does the sending to those visited!

Regeneration is the matter of fact "MAKEOVER" of the one being regenerated.

 

The emissary is the Holy Spirit. Only the Holy Spirit regenerates. Regeneration has nothing to do with you, me nor any other man. It is solely the work of the Holy Spirit and never apart from His being sent for the express visitation to that end.

There is no Biblical foundation for easy believism, a sinner's prayer for which no man save Jesus Christ can claim to pray without. Lest we are not sinner's and the Bible tells us whoever says he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Therefore, teaching a sinner's prayer is fruitless for we all have need of praying the sinner's prayer daily.

Faith, repentance and perseverance in the faith are all worked through and by Grace and are all resulted of Regeneration.

Jesus taught this basic truth to Nicodemus (a teacher in Israel) and he failed to understand it according to earthly things. Jesus did not beg, he did not plead with neither this man nor the rich young ruler, nor the Samaritan woman at the well, he simply taught the truth. The words the Father gave to him to speak and no more.

He taught that except a man be born again he cannot see or enter into the kingdom of God. This very teaching from the mouth of the Lamb of God requires regeneration to be first in the order of events that lead to faith repentance and the christian life showing forth fruit of that repentance.

If we hang regeneration upon the repentance of man, then regeneration cannot occur in any man born in the likeness and image of Adam.

Whether the heart is tot. depraved or whether the nature of man is only inclined toward sin only, the righteousness of any person is dirty rags to God. Therefore, our repentance, our faith our belief and our confession would all be worked from an inward fear of being cast into the lake of fire and bear out to have been brought forth from a heart of selfishness and not of desire and love for God.

This is why the Spirit is said to bear witness with our spirit this is why the Spirit is said to help with our infirmities to speak in prayer things we do not know.

Any thing coming from man and not of the Spirit remains of man. It is the Spirit which quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing.

That which is born of flesh is flesh.

You know these things, you speak them in your writing often while trying to denounce them. But because they are Spirit and they are truth you cannot even rightly denounce them.

I truly enjoy discussing this topic with you because through it all I see in your writings a brother in God who is fearful of losing that which is not his and still this is not what your writing states.

I pray the blessings of God upon you for your stedfastness in what you believe.

I have said before and will say again that I respect anyone's belief and especially when they know what it is and they will declare it. It is those who continually fear of offending that I have little respect for.

Speak the word of God according to your understanding, where offense comes on the account of the word let God prove the truth.

God Bless you Brother in your days and service private and public devotions.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

Then you take all the power out of God's Holy Word. The classic "Let George do it!" syndrome. Faith in God is, for man, a proactive response to God's word (knowledge), the scriptures and especially The Apostles say so! God reveals Himself to man through his Holy Word. In the old days He spoke through Prophets, but in these days, he speaks through his Holy Word.

EASY BELIEVISM? Now what could be easier for man, but to be "regenerated without his permission"? Man does not even have to believe in order to be "regenerated" (A TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE SITUATION). ZZZZZAAAAAP! you're a believer. Easy believism? Under your scenario, man is totally depraved and must be made new before he can begin to believe, but then when he is made new he can do nothing but belief for the rest of his natural life. NOW THAT IS EASY BELIEVISM....AND that cannot be found anywhere in scripture!

Rest assured we are all sinners, but because of Jesus ONCE-4-ALL atonement of the sins of the world, man is no longer under the penalty of sin because the penalty has been paid ONCE-4-ALL! If Jesus had not paid the penalty for sin, there could be no "SAVED THROUGH FAITH", because we would still be liable for the penalty which is death. BUT, because Jesus paid the price, we need not die for our sins, but INSTEAD, "whosoever believeth in HIM, shall have everlasting life. Yes, It is appointed unto man ONCE to die, then the judgement, but Jesus said (John 3:18) that those who believe are not judged! But those who do not believe are condemned (judged) by their own unbelief. Now tell me why you don't believe that!

I don't know anyone who "teaches" a sinners prayer. Did Jesus teach his disciples how to pray? Why shouldn't his disciples teach those who would "convert" how to approach the throne of God? Whether you know it or not, your children will learn from someone, how to approach you when they have failed you and recognize their failure and are deceived into a state of fear about you. Yes that happens in the best of families. If you are angry at your children's behavior, you wife may teach your children how to approach you to resolve the problem...who better? The sinner's prayer is a matter of perspective my friend.

You certainly place a lot of trust in a personal behavioral attribute of God. You really need an indepth study of Attributes. Start with a dictionary of the common language.

OK!

Did the Samaritan woman at the well get regenerated before she acknowledged that Jesus was someone special? Was the Holy Spirit present to regenerate the woman before she got all excited and ran to tell the villagers about that guy at the well who told her all about her self? Was the Holy Spirit present and regerated each of the 12 that Jesus called? Was the Holy Spirit present and regenerated all those who were sent out two by two? Was the Holy Spirit the one who "regenerated" Abraham? Did the Holy Spirit regenerate Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, etc. or, was it their individual FAITH in God that made them renown men of God? What about David? Why was Pentacost so special? Was it not because God sent the Paraclete to the apostles and disciples who were gathered, and who spoke with such strength and conviction that 3000 more "converts" (new believers) were added that day?

That is, of course, your opinion, and not a statement of truth! Repentance and regeneration are not equals either! Repentance is what one does that results from desire, or need, or knowledge, or shame, etc. Regeneration (being born again) normally results in one desiring to change (repent), understanding the need to repent (change), feeling shame for having behaved in a shameful manner and changing (repenting) from that behavior, and knowing through knowledge that change (repentance) is necessary. Being Born Again normally causes one to repent! Seldom can one repent without strong motivation to repent!

Love for God is not a prerequisite for FAITH, but is rather the result of FAITH. Repentance is the result of FAITH. Righteousness is how God views our FAITH in HIM just as it was in Abraham. Confession is the result of being born again, it is acknowledging God's power and willingness to forgive. If God were not one to forgive, who in their right mind would be willing to confess?

The Holy Spirit speaks in behalf of those who have FAITH, but does nothing for those who do not have faith!

Granted, but it is man, who is spirit, that quickens (gives life to) the flesh in which man resides, not the Holy Spirit. It is the spirit of man that controls the actions of the flesh outside the realm of natural biological functions. In other words the spirit of man is the pilot in the wheelhouse who controls the direction of the ship, the flesh. The flesh must obey the spirit! It is man's spirit that quickens (controls) man's flesh! the flesh profiteth (controls) nothing.

I do not fear that I will lose what I do not have, but I do fear losing the faith that I do have through my own actions, and that is why I study to show myself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed. If I were not working constantly, praying without ceasing, and remaining in submission to God, I could easily be drawn into unbelief, just as you can. The Teachings of Christianity are contrary to the world, and the pressures of being in the world but not of the world are great. All one needs do to fall is let go of that to which one clings! Think about it! If you think for one minute that you cannot let go and fall, you are sadly deceived. I've witnessed too many pastors simply let go because they weakened in their faith to the point where they no longer believed. Their beliefs were challenged to the breaking point and they let go, often taking many others with them. Jim Jones is an extreme example, but there are many others, David Koresch is another.

Thank you, I appreciate your prayers, but please don't pray that I come to your way of thinking, because though I respect you, I do not agree with your stated beliefs. I cannot find them in scripture, even when you post the scripture that you say supports your belief.

Well we disagree here. I do not "respect anyone's belief", though I do respect their right to have the beliefs they have. If "I respect anyone's belief", then I am compelled to respect Confusionism, Hinduism, Islam, WICCA, VOODOO, etc., and I DON"T! They are pagan and lifeless beliefs!

Thanks Brother!

 

Thank you Yelsew2 for your reply.

I will return the favor as soon as time permits.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas