A WOMAN'S ROLE???????

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Alex, Jul 1, 2002.

  1. Alex

    Alex
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    A WOMAN'S ROLE.....>>>>>
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1Ti 2:12 But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.
    1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve;
    1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not beguiled, but the woman being beguiled hath fallen into transgression:
    1Ti 2:15 but she shall be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith and love and sanctification with sobriety.

    In our "modern" world, what do you think these verses, especially 2:15, mean?

    God Bless................Alex
     
  2. tyndale1946

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    Alex said:
    There is salvation for both men and women, through the birth of Immanuel, the child born, and Son given; at whose birth, the angels sung peace on earth, good will to men; through the true Messiah, the deed of the woman, through the incarnate Saviour, who was made of a woman, there is salvation for lost sinners: he was born of a woman, and came into the world in order to obtain salvation for them; and he has effected it, and it is in him, for all such who apply to him for it; and with it all true believers, men and women, shall be saved through him... from the writing of Dr John Gill... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  3. Helen

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    Hi Alex,

    This may sound funny to you, but human nature really hasn't changed, cultures aside. God has given certain roles to men and women and they are for our benefit, not to make Him feel good about being a Boss :D

    I have taught, both here and off screen. And I am ALWAYS held accountable and under the authority of men: my husband, the webmaster, the pastor, the other elders, etc.

    And this is right and this is good. It is still true that women are more easily deceived than men, for we are more emotional creatures. And that's good, too. It is the woman in the home who knows how the relationships are going. The man's role is to set the direction and he is the one accountable to God for his family. The woman's role is to coordinate the troops and keep feedback going to her husband. Both roles are absolutely necessary and when one tries to usurp the other's role there is chaos.

    God really does know what is best, and He used Paul to tell us some of it.

    (and oh boy is THAT one going to get me jeered at in a couple of atheist forums!)

    +++++++++++

    I'm sorry, here is the edit with 'saved through childbearing'. This is not talking about salvation through Christ, but either about the fact that God will be keeping women safe during childbirth or that a woman will find true fulfillment in her role as wife and mother. Both concepts are considered valid regarding this verse.

    [ July 02, 2002, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: Helen ]
     
  4. Rev. Joshua

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    Helen, surely the scientist in you balks at these kinds of indefensible generalizations. I knew several female interrogators in the Army who were exceptionally difficult to deceive; and who were far less emotional than their husbands to boot.

    Joshua
     
  5. Maverick

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    That is their job and they have been taught how to spot phonies, but what about their private life? Yes, generally women do tend to get decieved more so than men. If that were not so, there would be fewer single mothers, men would not be able to carry on affairs for months and years at a time and salesfolk would not try to sucker women more so (indeed blatantly) than men.

    Regardless of whether women have gotten smarter over the centuries or not, the teaching still holds that men and women have different roles. I don't care if you want to call it symbolic of God's right and left lobes or what, but the teaching still remains and it is tied to things eternal and not cultural (See 1 Cor 11) and when you follow the teaching you do well and when you don't you don't do so well as in any other area that God gives commandents about and Paul said that the things he wrote were commandements from God. So fuss and cuss all you want and deny all you want the truth is there.

    What about the war between the sexes? Has it gotten better or worse? Do men really see women as equals now that they are in the workforce? In most cases, no. In fact, they have become sex objects even more so that is really all a man needs a woman for since he is to be the equal helper in the domestic side of the marriage as well as an equal breadwinner. Many men feel that if I have to clean and cook anyway, I may as well stay single as I can do it when and how I want and only have half the mess (really 3/4 as men are usually messier). Hence, all they need a woman for is sex so it has not gotten better at all. Notice that men are less likely to make committments now since they can find sex with all the liberated women and because of that they have gotten more shallow in what they want in a woman. They still want a woman like married Granddad when they get a little older, but cannot find one and settle for carnal satification.

    Then we have latch key kids and kid sthat seldom see either parent because of the crass materialism that even Christians get caught up in. It would be better to live in "fixer-up" mobile home with a wife at home for the kids and to be able to support her man emotionally than to have a house in the best part of town and kids that go to Hell in a Lexus.

    We lost when we went from Ozzie and Harriet to the Osbourne's and the average home in America. It is time to go back to the old paths in a lot of theology as well as practices. The lost will not do so but Christian's better.
     
  6. Helen

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    Helen, surely the scientist in you balks at these kinds of indefensible generalizations. I knew several female interrogators in the Army who were exceptionally difficult to deceive; and who were far less emotional than their husbands to boot.

    Joshua
    </font>[/QUOTE]No, Josh, they were not far less emotional than their husbands, they were far less emotive, and there is a very great difference. As a person involved in science (I am not a scientist [​IMG] ) and as a woman and as a Christian I not only stand by what I said, but am glad that God has assigned us our roles. He definitely knows what is best for us.

    And I certainly have enough to do without challenging any man for his work, too!
     
  7. Rev. Joshua

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    Helen,

    I assume by "less emotive" that you think they expressed their feelings less but actually felt things more deeply, based solely upon their sex.

    That may sound nice according to your worldview, but it is not reflective of reality. Each person is indeed fearfully and wonderfully made, and there is no universal statement that can be made about the intellectual or emotional makeup of people based upon their sex.

    Joshua
     
  8. JValen

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    I was a very liberal woman for many yrs. before I got saved. I admitt, I have issues with men that use their arrogance and haughty attitude to lead over women.Men should be leaders with respect to women, and not to oppress them, because they fear them. We are to be like Jesus asks in Scripture. I'm sorry, but many men, do not honor women as they should, and God knows both our hearts, men & women alike. We are blessed because we aren't asked to cover all of our bodies, hair & face like some women for example, in Afghanistan. Those women get beat by whips, spit on and are not allowed to work, be in the street alone, show
    their faces. In love there is no fear, so women should love men more and vice-versa, and there should be mutual respect. The Word belongs to all Who love it, and God uses any of us to share it.
    God is not about religion, but about Who God is and His WORD.We are called "the weaker sex", but it does not make us less in value. Our minds, hearts and souls are equally important to God. If men were more like Christ asks men to be, they can expect women to step back more, and be more virtuous,too. I feel that when you find any person wanting to be in control, it's cause they don't trust others to lead. Love unites the sexes.

    [ July 07, 2002, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: JValen ]
     
  9. Helen

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    Very nice post, JValen! I have a problem with that kind of man, too, by the way!

    Joshua, I'm afraid study after study shows that there are profound differences between gals and guys from birth which have nothing to do with sociological effects or preconceptions.

    Girls from birth tend to concentrate more on relationships and emotional responses to life. Guys from birth tend to concentrate more on things and 'getting there from here' in whatever area their interests are.

    But everyone has their own opinion, research or not...
     
  10. Rev. Joshua

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    Helen, you know as well as I do that those studies indicate general trends, and that they do not apply to all women.

    There are plenty of studies that show that women are generally shorter than men, but I have met women who are taller than me.

    Likewise there are men who are focused on relationships (many of them pastors according to Meyers-Briggs studies I have read), and women who couldn't give a rip about them.

    Joshua
     
  11. 10usNE1

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    I can only speak for myself, so I will. ;) I have been married for 21 years. My husband has pastored for 21 years. In the first years of our married life, I would say things to my husband like, "I would watch that person if I were you honey, I have a bad feeling about him/her." And my husband would basically ignore my warning. If you would ask my husband now if he ignores my warnings, he would tell you not only does he NOT ignore my warnings, but he comes to me for my opinion about people.
    I think it might have something to do with me being from the SHOW ME state. (Missouri)
    [​IMG]
     
  12. HankD

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    Dear Alex,

    Obviously, comparing Scripture with Scripture, salvation does not come to a woman via the act of childbirth.

    Paul often was far-sighted in his writings.
    I believe this is one of those places.
    He uses the generic word "saved" (Greek-sozo) as a substitute word for "sanctification" or "holiness" which he uses at the end of the sentence.

    Paul, after disallowing the (already saved) women under Timothy's charge to teach, adds this statement "they shall be saved in childbearing" to explain how these women will attain to sanctification in Christ through another ministry - "childbearing" - a word which relates to more than the act of labor and birth and includes the spiritual upbringing of these children (2 Timothy 1:5).

    So, women are sanctified through doing the thing which they love to do. It seems (imo) in line with the fact that the woman was deceived by satan while Adam went into the transgression with his eyes wide open. We (men) get the difficult cases of hardened sinners.

    My opinion of course.

    HankD
     
  13. latterrain77

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    Hi! I'm new to the forum/board. Please allow me to offer my comments on the discussion "A Woman's Role."

    A woman's role, in relation to man's, is defined in the Bible (Eph. 5, Col. 3:18, 1 Cor. 14:35, et al). What a blessing that lovely role is too. Our current culture reads the words "wives submit yourselves to your husbands" with some sort of "caveman meets jane" imagery. Nothing could be further from the truth (though the radical feminists have done a great job to create this sense of loathing at the mere word "submit").

    Recall, the Bible teaches that HUSBANDS are to love their wives as Christ loved the church (Eph. 5:25). How does Christ treat his church? Like a cavemen? Like a tyrant? GOD FORBID. Christ laid down his life for his bride the church (the ultimate sacrifice), and HUSBANDS should be treating their wives in this like/kind manner. Men should behave heroically towards their wives. They should not, as is common these days, think of their wives as CO-MEN (i.e. sending their wives out to work, outside of the home, when the woman should be staying home raising the children) - but I digress.

    Back to woman. If men would only treat woman in the loving, sacrificing manner as proscribed in the Bible, then woman would NATURALLY tend to respond in the manner defined by GOD. There is no place for arrogance, haughtiness, or worldliness in any of this. Refusal to focus on GOD's perfect plan for the male/female dynamic, is tantamount to making a fist at GOD. Would you dare?

    latterrain77
     
  14. Johnv

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    This topic has been discussed before numerous times. Rather than repost what I've said before, I'll simply reiterate, and then let y'all look up previous posts.

    In many places, when Paul spoke, he spoke in two main manners: That of a messenger of the Holy Spirit, and that of an administrative nature in regards to the daily runnings of a church. Items of administrative nature were not meant to be taken as the commandments of God, only suggestions so that the church may more effectively operate as the body of Christ. Paul's orations regarding women in the church were of an administrative nature, not a command nature. Therefore, women having the same roles in the church as men is not contrary to biblical teachings. We already know that the Holy Spirit does not use genitals as a litmus test for dispensation of spiritual gifts (there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female). So if a woman is called to be a pastor, the church should not forbid her.
     
  15. Alex

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    So to put what you said in simpler terms about administrative procedures could be the following:

    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;In a lot of cases where there is an administrative decision in regards to a church by the Pastor, you can take it or leave it as it is only a suggestion.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    If what Paul said wasn't important, then it shouldn't be in the bible to start with. This line of thought could eliminate a fourth of the bible as there are many scriptures one could call a suggestion based on what you said. This is my opinion!

    God Bless............Alex
     
  16. seekohana

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    Read 1 Peter 3

    that a woman should have the incorruptible ornament of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God (v 4).

    Psalm 101:2 I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.

    There are two commands given to a wife found in Ephesians 5. Give reverence to her husband, and second to be submissive to him.
    The limit of of submission is total submission without personal sin.

    A calm, gentle, submissive spirit is rare and costly and of great worth to God. If you ever met a woman like this you would not forget her. She is precious to God, a glory to her husband, and a joy to be around.

    My husband knows that I have my own interests and activities that make me my own person, and he loves me for that. He is the leader of our house, but we discuss things together. That is how we learn about each other, and grow in the Lord. We don't always agree with each other as we think differently, but the final descison is made by him, with input from both. He listens to me as I listen to him.
     
  17. Johnv

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    If what Paul said wasn't important, then it shouldn't be in the bible to start with. This line of thought could eliminate a fourth of the bible as there are many scriptures one could call a suggestion based on what you said. This is my opinion! You mean, like the OT kosher laws? ;)
     
  18. Alex

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    JohnV:

    The Hebrew word "kosher," when applied to food, means fit and proper for eating. The dietary laws, the laws of kashruth, are set out in the Book of Leviticus in the Bible. Kosher food comes from three sources -- animals, fish and the earth. These are assigned to three groups: meat, dairy and parve, the latter a neutral group containing fruits, vegetables, grains and kosher fish.

    Yes, even in the OT although I was refering to the NT. Maybe we all would be healthier if we followed the above paste.

    Boy, have we strayed from the original topic!!

    God Bless..........Alex
     

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