Abbreviated Word Study G2749, “keimai”

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Van, Aug 12, 2014.

  1. Van

    Van
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    Here we have a word that literally means to lie down, or to lay something down, to set down something or to put something somewhere. However, metaphorically, it refers to God placing someone or something somewhere for His purpose, and so can be properly translated as something being destined or put there to be the cause of something according to God’s purpose.

    Lets look at a few of its usages in scripture, ones that seem to use the word metaphorically.

    Luke 2:34, And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed—

    Here the literal meaning “put here” to be the cause of many… captures what is literally and metaphorically being said.

    Philippians 1:16, the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel;

    Other versions say “put here” and that more literal rendering best captures the idea.

    1 Thessalonians 3:3, so that no one would be disturbed by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we have been destined for this.

    Again, the rendering “put here” seems spot on.

    1 Timothy 1:9, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the )ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and )profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers

    Here, I see no need to pull off the literal meaning, i.e. law is not “put here” for a ….

    Revelation 4:2, Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.

    The word does not mean “standing” but does include being set somewhere, so a throne put there in heaven seems to hit the mark. For example a throne laid down in heaven might suggest erroneously it was tipped over.

    Bottom line, of the 5 metaphorical usages, “put here” or “put there” better presents the literal and metaphoric meaning of the word.
     
  2. Rippon

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    Luke 2:34 : Van prefers "put here" in the verse. But that guts the message: This is a snip from that verse:"This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel." To merely render it as :This child is put here is terribly ineffectual.
    destined : NIV, NLT, HCSB and NET.
    appointed : NASB, and Weymouth.
    set : WEB

    Phil. 1:16 Van prefers "put here"
    And sure enough, the NIV and ESV both have that terminology in this verse.

    The NET is close with : placed here.

    The NLT, NASB and HCSB have : appointed.

    1 Thess. 3:3
    Van prefers put here.

    destined : NIV, NLT, NET, ESV and NET.
    appointed : HCSB, Weymouth and WEB.

    1 Tim. 1:9
    Van prefers put here in this verse.

    Made : NIV, NASB and WEB.
    Intended : NLT and NET.
    Laid down : ESV.
    Meant : HCSB.

    Rev. 4:2
    Again Van prefers put here in this passage.
    Stood : ESV and Darby
    Standing : NASB and NET.
    Set : HCSB, WEB and YLT.
    ____________________________________________________
    When he scores with 20% or so of versions following his suggestions --that equates with failure.
     
  3. Van

    Van
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    Transparency and correspondence are goals given lip service to by the translation teams of our modern versions. Words have meanings. When someone or something is laid down somewhere, it is put there or put here. Thus the literal meaning conveys the intended message, and provides transparency. What the Greek says, the translation says.

    And also note the improved correspondence, the same rendering or almost the same rendering is used in each verse cited. But when the context requires it, different shades of meaning are used, i.e. put here and put there.

    It seems some want to present the same word willy nilly as appointed, destined, made, intended, laid down, meant, stood, standing and set. This fails the transparency test and the correspondence test in my opinion.
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    One cannot translate the same way for each time the Greek word is used in the text though, as context has to be taken into account, and intent of the author!
     
  5. Van

    Van
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    Thanks for agreeing with me, Yeshua1. If the word meaning, selected from its historical, i.e. lexiconal, meanings based on context is translated consistently, then transparency and concordance is improved.
     
  6. Rippon

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    Spoken by a puffed-up guy who sets himself up as a know-it-all.

    You can't have it both ways Van. On one hand you claiim that your preferences are mainstream --which is false. On the other hand you deride the word choices of translators as doing it willy nilly. You set yourself up as an authority when you clearly are not. Eating a slice or two of humble pie is what you need.
     
  7. Dr. Bob

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    I agree, Rip - can't have it both ways. When the whole goal in life seems to be to tear down godly men and attack good translations of God's Word (often with lies or innuendo), it seems fitting that such a person has to be willing to be knocked down a peg or two.

    Be careful not to use foul language of fellow-posters. Knock their IDEAS or POSITIONS, not them personally. :) (you call me fat and I'll be on you like white on rice)
     
  8. Van

    Van
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    Thanks for coming to my defense Dr. Bob. As you know, I proclaim no expertise because truth stands on its own.

    And I advocate for translation improvement toward the goals of transparency and correspondence, by translating the same Greek word meaning as consistently as possible.
     
  9. Rippon

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    Are the terms puffed up and know-it-all now considered foul language by the BB administration?
     
  10. Dr. Bob

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    Would you say that to a brother in your Sunday School class in a discussion? I wouldn't.

    Not really "cussin' out" but I'm just asking folks to be careful.

    But then, I'm a "jack-booted thug" and bear that description (by another BB member of me as an Administrator) as a red badge of courage!!
     
  11. Yeshua1

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    NOT agreeing with you here van, as you fail to take into consideration that one cannot just use the lexicon to do a strictly word by word translation each time with same exact wording, as meaning dictated by both contex and the lexicon..

    That is why we need to give some flexibility, and see that the Nasb/esv/Niv/Hcsb etc are ALL valid translations...
     
  12. Van

    Van
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    Your post is a complete fiction.

    Recall, I said use the NASB, an Exhaustive Concordance, a college level dictionary, more than one Bible Dictionary, lexicons, interlinears, commentaries, and study notes and footnotes such as found in the NET, WEB, HCSB, and NKJV.

    Here we have a word that literally means to lie down, or to lay something down, to set down something or to put something somewhere. However, metaphorically, it refers to God placing someone or something somewhere for His purpose, and so can be properly translated as something being destined or put there to be the cause of something according to God’s purpose.
     
  13. Rippon

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    You said of the above that it "is a complete fiction." How so?

    You believe in a lexicon-driven "translation."

    And you have not recognized that the ESV,NIV and NLT are legitimate translations.

    Don't try to deny the obvious Van.
     
  14. Van

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    G2749, Keimai. Here we have a word that literally means to lie down, or to lay something down, to set down something or to put something somewhere. However, metaphorically, it refers to God placing someone or something somewhere for His purpose, and so can be properly translated as something being destined or put there to be the cause of something according to God’s purpose. Thus a more transparent translation choice would be to consistently, and concordantly, translate the word as "put here" or "put there."

    Recall, in order to arrive at this understand through word study, I said use the NASB, an Exhaustive Concordance, a college level dictionary, more than one Bible Dictionary, lexicons, interlinears, commentaries, and study notes and footnotes such as found in the NET, WEB, HCSB, and NKJV.
     
  15. Rippon

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    But all of your recommended versions do not translate as you dictate in all five of the passages you cited --not the NASB, NET, WEB, HCSB or the NKJV.
     
  16. Rippon

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    Speaking of concordance, you must have missed my reference of it on another of your "word study" threads.

    Let me paraphrase something JoJ was quoting: It's rare that a given word in the target language has the same range of meaning in the source language.

    Now back to me. Words have a semantic range. A translator can't render a word the same way each and every time.

    One of my favorite theologians, D.A. Carson has said:"Contextual consistency has priority over verbal consistency (or word-for-word concordance).
     
  17. Yeshua1

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    But that would be where van sees the "calvinistic bias" creeping into the translations!
     
  18. Van

    Van
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    Your simply refer to the verses I provide and then offer disparaging remark. Words have meanings and the meanings have merit.
     
  19. Van

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    LOL, you do not even understand what JOJ was saying!! You keep addressing the effort to translate a Greek word with multiple shades of meaning with one, and only one English word that has the exact same shades of meanings. Therefore, you do not even understand the concept of concordant translation where the source language word meaning is translated consistently into a target language word or phrase. Thus if the source language word had four shades of meaning, then four words or phrases in the target language would be needed for a concordant translation.
     
  20. Van

    Van
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    I recommended using the NASB as the starting place for word study. But then I recommended comparison with other translations, which include the NET, HCSB, WEB and NKJV. I also recommended using lexicons, exhaustive concordances, dictionaries, Bible dictionaries, and commentaries. Put, placed and set here or there appears in multiple places.

    The fact that modern translations translate the same word meaning into different English words is a flaw, not a virtue. This masks the original choice pattern, and obscures the underlying language. Thus the stated goals of concordance and transparency are not well served.
     

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