ABORTED BABIES PREDESTINED?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by SAVED4LIFE, Mar 1, 2002.

  1. SAVED4LIFE

    SAVED4LIFE
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    If we are all predestined to go to heaven or hell before we are born, then would it be safe to say that some babies being aborted are going straight to hell? What about children who are kidnapped, raped and killed.....do some of them go to hell, too? I've always been taught that children go to heaven if they die, no question.
     
  2. Helen

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    Hi,

    I think Paul agrees with you that anyone who has not volitionally sinned is not condemned. See Romans 7:7-11.

    "Without the law, sin is dead." If it is dead, it cannot separate from God (kill spiritually). Jesus was the one sacrifice for all, and there is an entire category of sacrifices in the OT which is concerned with unknown/unintentional sins.

    Babies, and the profoundly retarded, are certainly safe in Christ's loving hands. And I would venture to say that the children are, too. I was very interested in the fact that the age GOD set for those who would not be able to go into the Promised Land in Exodus was 20. In other words, He did not condemn (refuse to allow into the Promised Land) even teenagers who had rebelled against Him.

    Something to think about...

    [​IMG]

    Helen
     
  3. FARWALKER

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    A quote i heard somewhere said something like this
    There are many men who deserve life who die and there are men who deserve death who live.

    I also think that sometimes reward or punishment many or most of the time goes beyond death.

    There have been many why's for me when it comes to understanding the Spirit. The truth of God's word is not always crystal clear therefore sometimes you must find answers by knowing God's character. Simply, it would not be consistant with the character of the God I serve for aborted babies to go to hell.
     
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying that not all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God? Isn't that the basis of original sin? Are you saying that since the baby has no knowledge of the law that they have not sinned? Are you saying that they could go to heaven without accepting Christ as their saviour because they have not sinned?

    Joseph Botwinick :confused:
     
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Helen,

    Would you mind please answering my question in my earlier post? I am bringing this back to the top as you might not have seen it earlier.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  6. Brother Adam

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    Joseph,

    I believe this goes far beyond our own understanding, and our theology and doctrine just cannot encompase the knowledge, wisdom, and love of a powerful, almighty, and gracious God. I believe that we must leave the eternal security of those who cannot profess their faith to us in God's hands. He surely knows what He is doing. [​IMG]

    UNP
    Adam
     
  7. changed_like_saul

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    All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. yes, even babies. I don't state this lightly. i know, some will find this hard to swallow, but yes even babies will go to hell unless God sees the blood of Christ on them.

    Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

    I believe abortion to be the single most horrific act the children of God have turned our heads to and now it has a strong hold in our society, neve the less, if a baby is a child of God the n he will be with the Lord and if the unborn is not, then........well i'll end there.

    Changed like Saul,

    Elder Chris Folsom

    www.pbsermons.org
     
  8. Clint Kritzer

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    Elder Folsom -

    I do not think that one should take such a hard lined approach on this matter. There has to be a limit on PRACTICING sin as opposed to being BORN into sin, an age of accountability. I cite Romans 2:12
    Further, it is not our lot to judge whether ANYONE is going to Heaven or Hell. Judgement rests on the Son of Man, Jesus Christ. Remember, Christ had a fondness for children as he cited in Matthew 19:13-15
    This forum is not the place for debate, but as Brother Adam said, we have need to put our trust in the Lord in this matter.

    May God bless you

    - Clint
     
  9. Barnabas H.

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    SAVED4LIFE, obviously you misunderstood the purpose of this forum. We allow people to post questions regarding the faith: how to become Christian, how to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as one's personal Savior, etc. It is not designed for questions which were posted with the intent to discuss or debate. The forum is for seekers of the faith.

    So, if you'd like to discuss this matter to your satisfaction, then it must be transferred out to a general discussion forum. OK? ;)
     
  10. SAVED4LIFE

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    Barnabas,

    I'm sorry, I thought "Seekek's Forum" was for new Christians with questions (seeking answers) and also for the lost who had questions as well. If I understand correctly, only a moderator can move topics???? If you wish to move this topic, I understand why.

    Thanks for the clarification.

    BTW, I also posted the topic "MODERN DAY PROFITS" in this forum.....shall it be moved also? There haven't been any responses to it anyway....

    [ March 19, 2002, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: SAVED4LIFE ]
     
  11. aiki

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    I have heard the idea that babies who die are heaven-bound supported this way:

    When the child newly born of Bathsheba died as part of God's judgement on King David's evil behaviour, David said, "I will go to him, but he will not return to me" (2 Sam. 12:23). We know that David was called by God a "man after mine own heart" (Acts 13:22), so it is safe to assume that David's eternal destiny was Heaven, not Hell. And this, then, is where he will go to see his dead newborn who was never "saved" or "born again" or even had a chance to live righteously. It would seem, then, that infants who die do go to Heaven.

    Hope this is helpful. [​IMG]
     
  12. Helen

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    I apologize for not answering earlier -- I missed the thread entirely when I was checking in before.

    Being born with a sin nature and sinning because of that nature, but unintentionally, is very different from sinning out of choice and in conscious rebellion of the law. Both sin, but the results are different. This is because God judges the heart.

    Everyone with a sin nature sins. That is the result of a sin nature. So there are no exceptions to the fact that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. However Paul is QUITE clear in Romans 7:7-11 that without the law, sin is dead. That means that it still may be sin, but it is powerless to separate the person from God. Jesus, as the one sacrifice for all, died for the unknown/unintentional sins as well as for all our others. The babies and the profoundly retarded are covered by the blood of Jesus as unintentional sinners. Remember that God judges the heart, not the results of sin nature!

    Genesis 8:21 has an interesting use of words. God COULD have said that the hearts of all men tend toward evil from conception on but He didn't. He didn't even say from babyhood on! He said from CHILDHOOD on. I think this is a very important distinction, especially when taken with Paul's comments in Romans 7:7-11.
     
  13. JAMES2

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    Joseph:
    Amen!! What do people think Original sin is,anyway? We have ALL sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

    God is sovereign or he isn't!!! People need to get over this idea that there is ANOTHER way to heaven than being REGENERATED by the power of the Holy Spirit, and being justified by faith.

    At least to me, the scriptures seem clear. This has been debated at length so not much more to say, other than I agree with Joseph.
    James2
     
  14. scooby

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    I have always believed and have been taught that all who are not of the age of accountability and die go to Heaven. This, of course, would include unborn babies. What is the age of accountability? Well, I believe that it is no set age because some children learn right from wrong and what sin is at an earlier age than others. My church is an independent Baptist church by the way. I hope this gives you another viewpoint on this subject.
     
  15. Brother Adam

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    Admit I like the name Scooby, but where is the biblical evidence to back your assertion that not all have fallen short of the glory of God?

    UNP
    Adam
     
  16. Christopher

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    This is an issue that isn't directly talked about in the Bible.

    "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)" (Rom. 9:11)

    God hated Esau before he was born and had done any good or evil. To say babies aren't sinners until they commit their personal acts of sin is erroneous.

    "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Ps. 51:5)

    However, David seemed certain that his little child was in paradise.

    "But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." (2 Sam. 12:23)

    I'm not suggesting either position, but there's not enough Biblical support to conclusively decalare one position or the other.
     
  17. Aaron

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    Moving this to the theology forum.
     
  18. Johnv

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    Okay, How can it be that some children are destined to go to Hell, yet Jesus said, we must be like children to enter the kingdom of Heaven?

    Would it be better to leave judgement upto the Judge, and worry more about our own salvation rather than the salvation of others?
     
  19. hrhema

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    This is to me a ridiculous assumption that just because a baby is born with a sinful nature that baby will go to Hell even though he or she has never sinned. A baby cannot sin because a baby does not know right or wrong.

    Some people seem to want to argue ridiculous beliefs. Take a scripture and create a new belief. When Herod killed the babies the Bible called them Innocent. Innocents will not go to Hell.
     
  20. russell55

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    Ahh, but Ephesians tells us that we are all BY NATURE objects of God's wrath. That sinful nature that a baby is born with make him automatically an object of God's wrath. God's wrath must be dealt with in order for that baby to be in God's presence.

    But innocent is not the same thing as being righteous. If a baby goes to heaven, it is because God in His mercy applies Christ's death to that child. It may well be that He does this for every single little one that dies--I don't know, and scripture tells us next to nothing about this--but they cannot be in His presence without being clothed in Christ's righteousness.

    [ May 02, 2002, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
     

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