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Abortion and TULIP

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Matt Black, Nov 7, 2008.

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  1. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    If you do not understand the doctrine of grace, then don't say what it means.
     
    #21 annsni, Nov 10, 2008
  2. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

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    It is somewhat presumptuous to equate "the doctrine of grace" with Five-point TULIP Calvinism, considering that the latter wasn't invented until the 1500s. (OTOH, the doctine of God's grace had been taught in the Church long before that) :smilewinkgrin:
     
    #22 Doubting Thomas, Nov 10, 2008
  3. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    And there's a difference?
     
    #23 annsni, Nov 10, 2008
  4. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Yup - big difference between Augustinianism and TULIP-Calvinism.

    So, I guess, annsni, that I'm just dumb and I need you to enlighten me: what is your understanding of the doctrine of grace, how does this agree or differ from TULIP, and how does your understanding of it assist in the abortion dilemma?
     
    #24 Matt Black, Nov 10, 2008
  5. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Yes, but the OP question is to do with the victims of abortion, not the perpetrators - what is their status soteriologically, and how, if at all, is this affected by them being aborted, with particular reference to 5-point Calvinism.
     
    #25 Matt Black, Nov 10, 2008
  6. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    God elects. End of story.
     
    #26 annsni, Nov 10, 2008
  7. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    No need - you enlighten me. To me there is no difference.
     
    #27 annsni, Nov 10, 2008
  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    If only it were...
     
    #28 webdog, Nov 10, 2008
  9. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    Frankly, I think someone needs to give the history of abortion, starting with the butchering of young women in back allies to rightly understand how legal abortions came about before pointing a finger.

    Just perhaps someone was showing concern for the butchered women in those days, and the looseness of society has allowed free abortions to get out of hand.

    Just perhaps there needs to be more education on what it means to engage in sexual promescuity. With kids getting involved at a younger age, perhaps parents need to spend more time with their children including sex education and relationships.

    Just a thought, Cheers,

    Jim
     
    #29 Jim1999, Nov 10, 2008
  10. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    So, one shouldn't protest against abortion then, annsni, since it is all the will of God...?
     
    #30 Matt Black, Nov 10, 2008
  11. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

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    Umm....no :smilewinkgrin:

    God indeed elects but that certainly isn't the "end of (the) story" when it comes to evaluating TULIP (Calvinism) in light of what the Church has traditionally taught from the Scriptures regarding the relationship between God's grace and man's responsibility.
     
    #31 Doubting Thomas, Nov 10, 2008
  12. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Did I once say that God orchestrates sin? I don't think so.
     
    #32 annsni, Nov 10, 2008
  13. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    My response was to Matt Black who asked what happens to the children who are aborted. Are they saved or not. As I said, God chooses. What happens to the baby? I trust a sovereign, loving, just God. That's all I can say about it because God never told us in Scripture what He does with children that die before they're born.
     
    #33 annsni, Nov 10, 2008
  14. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    I meant that since God wills who gets saved and who doesn't (according to your schema of soteriology) abortion makes no difference one way or the other. The implications of such a soteriological schema therefore profoundly disturb me.
     
    #34 Matt Black, Nov 11, 2008
  15. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Do you believe that babies go to hell?

    If you believe babies go to heaven (as the Bible teaches) this same thing can be said of any soteriology, Calvinistic or Arminian.

    "Is it not better for those babies to die in the womb and go to heaven, than to later "choose" to reject God and Go to hell?"> Anonymous Arminian.
     
    #35 Havensdad, Nov 11, 2008
  16. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    It was more a reference to (alleged) total depravity of newborns. But your point is well-taken generally.
     
    #36 Matt Black, Nov 11, 2008
  17. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Newborns do have a depraved, sinful, corrupt nature. However, without knowledge of sin, there is no penalty. Newborns, having never consciously broken the law, have their new life in Heaven bought and paid for by the blood of Christ.
     
    #37 Havensdad, Nov 11, 2008
  18. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Of course, if Babies do NOT have a depraved nature, you have a situation where for all eternity in Heaven, the VAST majority of individuals, ARE NOT having to praise Christ for their salvation: which is contrary to scripture.

    Depraved Babies are purchased by the blood of Christ. They are not saved by their own righteousness.
     
    #38 Havensdad, Nov 11, 2008
  19. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I agree with your view of infants, but have to say as someone who is reformed, your view differs from the majority of those who hold to the same soteriology. It's refreshing :)
     
    #39 webdog, Nov 11, 2008
  20. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Ditto: your view, with which I would agree, breaks the (theo)logical impasse presented by TULIP to which I alluded earlier
     
    #40 Matt Black, Nov 11, 2008
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