Abortion question

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by agedman, Feb 5, 2014.

  1. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,258
    Likes Received:
    187
    I do not want the question to be hurtful in any way.

    Nor do I want some to assume I am in favor of abortion without cause (health of the unborn and life of the mother).

    So here is the premiss and question:

    First, it is assumed that all babies that die go to heaven.

    Second, it is assumed that all who grow to the age of accountability (using a good Baptist term) are responsible for their own lost estate and without Christ will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

    Question:

    Is it righteous to prevent the absolute certainty of one going to heaven by preventing the ability of being aborted?
     
  2. Judith

    Judith
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2012
    Messages:
    982
    Likes Received:
    10
    While I disagree with your premise I would ask. Is it righteous to play God?
     
  3. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,258
    Likes Received:
    187
    I am not sure that abortion is playing God.

    If God holds the keys to death and "Hades," can any abortion occur without His consent?
     
  4. Zaac

    Zaac
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2012
    Messages:
    13,757
    Likes Received:
    220
    Do the unborn fall into the "For all have sinned" category?

    I don't think that Scripture shows that babies and the such go to heaven. But I have no problem hoping that a JUST God always makes that determination.

    The only reason I say we shouldn't say that is a certainty is that it speaks to abortion being the answer instead of Jesus.

    Is it possible to sin in the womb?
     
  5. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,258
    Likes Received:
    187
    One of the premise for the questions dealt with this issue.

    It is assumed that until "the age of accountability" that when one dies, they go to heaven.

    If not, then it brings up all manner of questions concerning the death of infants - even that of the need for pedobaptism.
     
  6. Judith

    Judith
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2012
    Messages:
    982
    Likes Received:
    10
    Such circular thinking or to say the end justifies the means is not of God, but stems from an over zealous maculation of scripture while seeking the promotion of the sovereignty of God beyound its parameters. Also such thinking is used to justify and deny sin. According to scripture not everything that happens is His will. So yes things do happen outside His consent, but not outside His knowledge.

    By the way any and all abortion is murder and playing God. Any person who finds solace of any kind from their sin of murder (abortion) from the teaching the mudered baby is in heaven is a sin denier. Just to be clear so it does not seem like I am condemning others. I have taken part in this so I have been a murderer. Forgiven, thank God yes, but with no solace except the grace that God has bestowed on me.
     
    #6 Judith, Feb 5, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2014
  7. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    4,628
    Likes Received:
    11
    kill

    To put it another way, you're asking, "Is it better to kill babies to ensure that they go to Heaven, rather than to prevent them from being killed, knowing that the possibility exists that they may grow up and die and go to Hell".

    Answer: No.

    First of all, you assume that there's some magic, arbitrary age, before which, people aren't accountable for their sin. Not true. The "age of accountability" isn't found anywhere in scripture.

    We assume, based on certain verses, that God shows mercy to those who, either being too young or feebleminded, cannot grasp the moral consequences of their sin. But that's an assumption and an extrapolation on our part, not an explicit Biblical teaching.

    Of course it is. It is man taking on the prerogative to take a human life, which belongs only to God.

    No. However, "consent" and will are two different things.

    All sin occurs under God's permissive will, but is a violation of His sovereign will.

    Yes. See Ps 51:5 and Ps 58:3.

    Why not? It was possible for John to rejoice in the womb (Luke 1:41). If a baby can rejoice in the womb, then why can't a baby with a sin nature sin in the womb?
     
    #7 JohnDeereFan, Feb 5, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2014
  8. SolaSaint

    SolaSaint
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,824
    Likes Received:
    25
    Awe lets just kill all babies under 2 years old so all will go to Heaven.

    :tonofbricks:
     
  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,386
    Likes Received:
    790
    While it is your right to engage in these types of questions. These types of questions are unfruitful, unwarranted and much like asking can God make a rock to big to pick up.
     
  10. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,258
    Likes Received:
    187
    Being a "baptist" board, the premise stands. Baptist by in large agree with the "age of accountability" view.

    Taking that view as accurate to BAPTISTS, which the OP does, then the question remains viable - even if restated as you post.

    Secondly, the idea of "playing God" is just as accurately painted toward those who are anti-abortionist in view. Perhaps for two reasons:

    First, (being very delicate here, folks) perhaps it is God's will that some die in abortion, just as it is when one is still born or through miscarriage. Does one "play God" when determining life and death of the yet born more important than life and death of the born?

    Could it not be that the very judgment of God displayed upon the world by withholding those who may have grown to the honor and glory of God? Often one considers that if only there was another great revival or moving of the Spirit. But does not God show judgment upon people by withholding even prophets and teachers of truth?
     
  11. HungryInherit

    HungryInherit
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2013
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    0
    But what if the babies that aren't aborted are not the elect?
     
  12. Judith

    Judith
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2012
    Messages:
    982
    Likes Received:
    10
    Whether they are of the elect or not of the elect is not the issue. Their eternal state should never enter into our minds or the process for justification for abortion or the justifcation for not aborting. The issue is that the Lord says, not to murder. That and that alone should be our only reasoning.
     
    #12 Judith, Feb 5, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2014
  13. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    4,628
    Likes Received:
    11
    Then they live and God is glorified.

    Unless you're claiming open theism, God already knows what's going to happen with those babies, how they're going to grow up, that they're going to die unsaved.

    God is glorified in the judgment of the non-elect just as much as He is in the salvation of the elect.

    They might, but there are still many of us who don't determine our doctrine by majority vote.

    And has been answered.

    Again, you're confusing God's permissive will with God's sovereign will. Just because God allows something doesn't mean He wills it. God does not contradict Himself. Thus, he does not say "thou shalt do no murder" and then will someone to murder. He does not that one who harms a child is better off with a millstone around their neck, and then will someone to harm a child. He doesn't say He hates someone who sheds innocent blood and then will someone to shed innocent blood.

    Absolutely. I believe abortion is both the cause of, and an example of, God's judgment on America.

    Not in the Church, no.
     
    #13 JohnDeereFan, Feb 5, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2014
  14. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Good Golly Miss Molly.

    1) Do all who die before the age of accountability go to heaven? No, all who are conceived in iniquity and unbelief are condemned already.

    2) As Shakespeare said, Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive. What if babies who die before the age of accountability do not go to heaven, but are condemned as scripture teaches? Not because they have done anything good or bad, but as a consequence of Original Sin, they were made sinners. They did not become sinners when they first sinned after the age of accountability.

    3) This cult like advocacy of child sacrifice to save them is an abomination to the Lord.
     
  15. Zaac

    Zaac
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2012
    Messages:
    13,757
    Likes Received:
    220
    And that's what I was getting at. The problem with sin would still exist if ALL have sinned so there couldn't be any killing before a certain age and they automatically go to heaven as that does away with the need for Jesus and the Cross.
     
  16. pk4life

    pk4life
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2013
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hands that shed innocent blood are an abomination to God.

    Think about these mothers... there are abortion therapy groups for a reason.

    You want to put that on a mother?
     
  17. Zaac

    Zaac
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2012
    Messages:
    13,757
    Likes Received:
    220
    Not just the putting it on the mothers, but it does away with any reason to even have kids or for reproduction. Just sterilize everyone and call it a day.
     
  18. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with Van on many things, but this is absolute error. Babies are not born dead in sin.

    Paul clearly taught he was spiritually alive until he learned the law.

    Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
    8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
    9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
    10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
    11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.


    Paul is clearly speaking of learning the law as a young Jewish man in verse 7. He said he would not have known what lust is, except the law had said thou shalt not covet.

    Paul shows that sin has no power without law. Therefore sin can have no power over little children who do not know and understand between good and evil. This is clearly shown in Deu 1:39 where God allowed the children of the Jews who sinned in the wilderness to enter the Promised Land.

    Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

    The Promised Land is a figure of heaven. The Jews who sinned in the wilderness were not allowed in, but the children who did not know between good and evil were allowed to go in and possess it.

    Back to Romans 7, Paul clearly says he was spiritually alive until the commandment came. This is when he learned the law. Upon learning the law and understanding between good and evil he became accountable and was convicted as a sinner. He spiritually died. Paul could not possibly be speaking of physical death here.

    Children are not born dead in sin, and they are not held accountable until they learn and understand good from evil.

    You are WAY off here Van.

    And no, we should not kill children to get them into heaven, that is murder.
     
    #18 Winman, Feb 5, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2014
  19. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Hi Winman, one of us is clearly wrong. Scripture says we were made sinners, not made predisposed to sin innocents. I have rebutted all your arguments, but all you do re-post them and ignore the rebuttals.

    Have a nice day.

    Abortion is murder, and anyone who argues for sacrificing children so they might remain pleasing to God is an abomination to the Lord.
     
  20. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    From a UN Report concerning the RCC:
    http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/...wed-priests-to-rape-children-un-report-says-1


    It is a scathing report about the sexual abuse and immorality of the priests, but it also includes recommendations for sex ed, including abortions, unfortunately.
     

Share This Page

Loading...