1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Abortion : should we admit exceptions ?

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by Spear, Sep 27, 2009.

  1. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    You're right, it's not, and no one is advocating "unconditional self-defense". The scripture permits (but does not require) self-defense when a person is imminently threatened. Having an abortion when the pregnancy imminently threatens the mother is therefore scripturally permissible.
     
  2. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,914
    Likes Received:
    706
    It does because the child is doomed. Period. It is the same as taking organs from a person who is brain dead. The brain dead person is doomed to die as is the unborn child. To leave the unborn child in the fallopian tube, the woman is doomed to die. Period.

    Let me ask you this: a mentally disturbed person is going to kill your child. There is no way that they understand what they are doing but the only way to stop them is to kill them. What do you do? Is the the will of the person who is going to kill another person the issue here? No it's not.
     
  3. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2003
    Messages:
    4,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    Now the chasm has widened to include murdering a "brain dead" person to extract their organs.

    An unborn child is a person. An abortion murders a person. It is wrong. It really is that simple.
     
  4. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No it is not that simple.
    The crime presented here in the Scripture is robbery.
    The Scripture allows lethal force for something less that the requirements of the lexis talionis.

    The Law of Moses allowed/allows lethal force at night against potential robbery because the threat of death is potentially present because the threat of death cannot be discerned in the darkness.

    In fact, this Scripture supports the justified abortion of a tubular pregnancy because it is a certain death threat to the mother whether day or night.

    HankD
     
    #144 HankD, Oct 2, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2009
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    FWIW to anyone, this is exactly the scriptural interpretation of the ancients against "the pursuer of life" or Hebrew RODEF:

    Based upon Numbers 35, the unborn child threatening the life of the mother is "the unintentional pursuer of life" or "rodef".

    "The classic example of a 'pursuer without intention' is a fetus in the mother's womb who endangers the mother's life. If it is not possible to save both of them, we save the mother and kill the fetus since it has the status of a 'rodef'".
    (Rambam, Hilchot Rotzeach U-Shemirat Ha-Nefesh 1:9).

    HankD
     
  6. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2003
    Messages:
    4,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    Numbers 35 in no way condones abortion! An unborn child can not possibly be considered a offender in the context of this scripture. Attempting to rationalize such a murderous act in this way is a distortion of scripture. Christians need to accept, support, and defend the facts that life begins at conception, that God is the creator of all life even than conceived in tragedy, and He does not create such life so that we may take it simply to ease our pain or limit our own risk of death.
     
  7. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2003
    Messages:
    4,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lex talionis is the duty of civil government whom He has ordained for the purpose. It is not the right of the individual. Lex et ordo will fail if we stray from this principle.
     
  8. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    38,982
    Likes Received:
    2,615
    Faith:
    Baptist
    When it comes to people saying they believe abortion should be allowed, I now (sometimes) say,
    "I agree, and a woman should be allowed to have an abortion up to thirty days after after the day of delivery!"
    I sure get some unusual looks and reactions!

    Even GM* is allowing you to abort your sale for up to 30 days after "delivery"

    Salty


    * Govt Motors or General Motors (based on your political persuasion)
     
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No it is not a distortion of Scripture. You don't understand the concept Dragoon or you are bearing false witness against me.
    I never said it condones abortion in and of itself. I used the words "threatening the life of the mother".

    I agree that it does not condone abortion for convenience sake but allows abortion in order to preserve the life of the mother.

    Numbers 35 is a scriptural concept in which a life which God created who unintentionally kills or is a potential killer of another may be slain by the family of the dead or slain by the use of lethal force by the individual being threatened.

    Numbers 35 allows the death of an unintentional killer outside one of the cities of refuge.

    e.g. If a man fells a tree, having taken all the necessary precautions, yet if the tree falls and kills another person, the man who fells the tree becomes a "rodef", subject to death.

    He himself is innocent of murder, but the family of the dead person is allowed to take his life (which God created) if he is found outside one of the cities of refuge and yet they are innocent of murder as well.

    The thief coming in the darkness is a potential "rodef" (though he may not actually have murder as a motive) he is a potential threat to the life of the household and his life may also be taken.

    The concept is that the child is the unintentional killer (rodef) of the mother.

    The child of a tubular pregnancy presents a certain threat of death (howbeit innocent and unintentional) to the mother day or night.

    That is why I specified the Lex Talionis as this is an OT allowance as well as the authority to kill those nations which threaten us.

    Yes God created all life, but the point is that there are certain conditions (self defense,war) under which God allows us to take life (even innocent life) which He created in defense of one's own life.

    Again, that may offend your piety, but there it is in the Scripture.
    No amount of rationlization on your part will remove it.


    HankD
     
    #149 HankD, Oct 3, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2009
  10. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2003
    Messages:
    4,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nothing in Numbers 35, or anywhere else in the Bible, permits or condones abortion - killing an unborn child - under any circumstances. All attempts to force something else out of God's word are most surely an offense to Him. There are certainly recognized reasons for carrying out justice among men that permits killing another but abortion isn't one of them.
     
    #150 Dragoon68, Oct 3, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2009
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Obviously, I disagree.

    The life of the mother is the one exception.
    In fact, I would not call it an abortion but an act of self defense.

    Fortunately I have not had to face the situation with my wife.

    Perhaps I would have changed my mind when it came right down to it but even in that case I would probably have left the decision to my wife alone as it is her life and her conscience before God.

    HankD
     
    #151 HankD, Oct 3, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2009
Loading...