Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Salty, Apr 17, 2011.
Interesting web page
While I can't vouch for the accuracy of the history, it seems the author has the rest correct.
In the section dealing with the ordinances, the author made a confusing statement. He wrote that Baptists do not call them sacraments because of the sacerdotal implications. Yet in the very next sentence he described the Lord's Supper as a "means of grace."
In my understanding, Baptists call them ordinances, not sacraments, for the very reason that to call them sacraments suggests they are means of grace.
I would like to have seen a treatment of the Landmark movement , which is still influential in Baptist thought, although not as dominant as it once was.
Another site to confuse the issue. Can a Baptist church be found before Roger Williams? Most Baptist cannot stomach that the Baptist (whose name we have chosen) did come from the Mother church. If we look closely enough we can see that we did, as an identifiable enmity.
So what do Baptists really believe? All believe we are autonomous, so here we are, all by ourselves doing what? Arguing, questioning, accusing, judging, going into all directions.
What ever we are it is never dull. John the Baptist some will say, the Great Commission many will say, and some few, after Damascus Road. We will know at the Rapture where our choice has placed us in eternity.
What I found interesting was the Catholic view of Baptist churches
This statement was right at the top of the Catholic view:
"The Baptists consider the Scriptures to be the sufficient and exclusive rule of faith and practice..."
What we should be surprised we accept Scripture as our final authority?, unlike the Roman Catholic church.
Hey Salty, that is of interest. Not ignoring you - thought I had answered.
While we were not wrong to leave, we accept some of the things they have wrapped in an easy to carry container. As you point out they are outside of scripture in much of their understanding. I contend we took some of what they brought into their church, and observe the world also likes to participate.
To me this demonstrates there is no church down here (even though it may be Christian) has clean skirts. By the Grace of God, my faith is Through His Faith (and I know you stand on this promise too), and not my preferred denominational church doctrine.
The Baptists form one of the largest Protestant denominations, with worldwide membership of nearly 35 million. The following distinguish the Baptists from other Protestant communions:
(1) their insistence on baptism of adult believers only;
Another example of broadbrushing a little information to incorrectly include/exclude other groups. There are other denominations that insist on baptism of adult believers only. The Nazarenes and all penetecostal denominations are examples.
This broadbrushing to include many groups based on what a small group believes, has lead to much misinformation about what other groups believe.
Well said. And I might add that (1) is incorrect. Baptists don't practice "Adult" baptism. We practice "Believers" baptism. Believers, regardless of whether or not they have reached their majority.
Something interesting from the OP...
They seem to indicate that Baptists do indeed acknowledge, and believe, the truth of the "Universal Church"
It sounds like their research has shown the baptists acknowledge the Universal Church idea...but you sure wouldnt think so from the vitriolic denials of the UC that I encounter if I bring it up on this site.
I guess in this case the BB is not the norm.
Some, make that a lot, of Baptists believe in the universal church.
I am one who holds that the UC is a useless fantasy, but I'm not vitriolic about it. Or is calling it a useless fantasy vitriolic?
Naw, I don't think so.
A good assessment on the cogitation of Universal inclusion is fantasy as you say. For some reason (we should consider who is behind some of the fiction we believe) we accept some of what the world finds acceptable to be gospel. Some things are truly a gospel, but I don't accept other people's gospel.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ does not lend itself to Universal Reconciliation. Scripture will not allow us to believe false teaching.
The angel of light is hard at work in every religion on earth, but I do hope the Baptist do not turn to him in this ungodly religious belief, without understanding their Gospel is not our Gospel, or anything close to our Gospel. Only those that Believe on the name of Jesus Christ can be in the Body of Christ. His name is Jesus, which no man knew until Mary was told His Name.
It was interesting however NONE of these so-called experts made mention of covered-dishes or fried food.
That's like forgetting to mention that there is snow at the North Pole.
Protestants??? I never have heard Baptists called "protestants" in my life!
I think that may bed a cultural or historical thing, depending on where you live. Here, the word "protestant" is used to mean "not Roman Catholic", so it is quite usual for us to refer to baptists as protestants.
Protestants are out of the Reformation, and baptists do not claim their origin from the post-Reformation era. Hence, Baptists are not protestant.
& so why is that important?
Because it means that Baptists existed before the Reformation, that they were never part of the Roman Catholic church, and, in fact, pre-dated the RCC. So Baptists can't be Protestant by any definition.
Since we Baptists seek to follow the Scriptures for faith and practice, it means that it is like the one Jesus established during his earthly ministry, and therefore is a true New Testament Church.
It means that since Jesus said the gates of Hell would not prevail against it, it means that there have been Baptist, or Baptist-like groups since NT times. Protestants came along 1600 years too late.
Well said, my friend.
Too late for what, to be members of some club? With all due respect Tom, to me its just histrionic & something BTW that has never ever been proven to me personally. Christ doesnt look any differently at you as a Baptist than to my Wife who is a Presbyterian. Besides you still have to work with people & it should be immaterial if a Christian marks their history before, during & after the Roman church. It just sounds to me anyway like a bragging rite. Bottom line, I dont see its relevance. Sorry.
I understand your reaction. This is not a test of fellowship for me, but the view I espouse is is significant in this way:
Baptists claim kinship with the church Jesus established during his earthly ministry. Landmarkers suggest that it's more than kinship--it's one and the same. Baptists claim to hold to doctrines and practice of the first-century churches. Many Baptists hold that Baptist or Baptistic church have existed ever since (although not by that name). If Baptists are right, then Protestants groups cannot claim to be New Testament churches.
And why not, one asks? Because their many of their doctrines and practices are not those of first-century believers.
This is not to speak ill of your beloved Presbyterian wife, or my Methodist siblings. Their status as believers is not in question here. We're talking about the status of the faith groups to which they belong as true NT churches. For the first 1600 years they didn't even exist. 1600 years too late. And if that's the case, the no New Testament church existed from, say, 250-300 A. D. until then.
On the other hand, if God preserved his churches during that time, then I contend they were the spiritual ancestors of Baptists.
In our cum-bah-yah world of today, there are no right churches or wrong churches--there are only churches who see things differently. We just don't want to use the word "error" these days. Unless we're debating other Baptists on this board (heh heh). And it is certainly politically incorrect to suggest that non-Baptist groups are not NT churches.
The position I hold is seen by many as unprovable (as you argue), arrogant and a reaction to Roman Catholic claims of Apostolic authority.
I maintain that the church Jesus established, he kept. From that day to this. They believed and practiced their faith exactly like Baptists.