About "Jesus and The Holy City", by Peter W. L. Walker

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Sep 15, 2014.

  1. asterisktom

    asterisktom
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    Concerning Jesus and the Holy City:
    http://books.google.com/books/about/Jesus_and_the_Holy_City.html?id=koxXsUgtlk4C

    Pretty engaging reading so far. I wanted to copy a passage to paste here, but cannot do it from that site. I had found a (what may prove to be a minor) disagreement with the author, his comment that some of the NT was written before AD 70 and some after. I believe that all of it was finished before that time.

    I also believe, FWIW - and as I have posted elsewhere - that Clement's Epistle to the Corinthians as well the Didache were written pre-AD 70.
     
    #1 asterisktom, Sep 15, 2014
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  2. asterisktom

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    Even though this link only gives selected chapters of the book there is enough to make me want to buy the book when I get the chance. A lot of good material and food for thought here.

    In the chapter on Mark Walker brings up some very good OT connections. I had missed entirely the connection between Mark 1:11:

    "You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

    and Psalm 2:7:

    ""The LORD has said to Me,
    'You are My Son,
    Today I have begotten You.'"


    This makes the second Psalm even more central in NT thought. Also, good comments are made concerning Isa. 40, that the words there are directed to the city of Jerusalem, not just Israel in general. It was this verse that sparked my desire to study out "Jerusalem" and "Zion" a few years back. There is very much here, worthy of careful study.

    Later in the Mark chapter the author points out the connection between the cursing of the fig tree and cleansing of the temple, "curse" being the more operative word than "cleansing". Christ's turning of the tables, literally and figuratively, on the moneychangers
    was a foretaste of judgment, not a precursor of spiritual reformation. The Jews in the Temple, "robbers", were at the verge of being "withered", just like that fig tree outside, and just like the potter's vessel.

    Walker also makes the helpful observation of just how these people were "robbers' and "theives". They stole from God the fruit from His vineyard. Not entering into the Kingdom themselves, now allowing others to enter.
     
  3. kyredneck

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    18 For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
    22 but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels,
    23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
    24 and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than that of Abel. Heb 12

    "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation". It can't be seen with the eye or touched with the hand because it's spiritual. What's hard to understand about that?

    As usual, you've caused me to add to my list things to go 'look and see' for myself. I found Clement's epistle here:

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.toc.html

    ...and the Didache here:

    http://www.paracletepress.com/didache.html
     
    #3 kyredneck, Sep 16, 2014
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  4. asterisktom

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    Ha. You are asking the wrong person there. Nothing at all.
    Somewhere I did an article for my reasons for saying those two were prior to AD 70. It may be here at BB or it may be elsewhere. I might try to dig it up again - tomorrow. Time for bed.
     
  5. tyndale1946

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    Could you give me chapter and page of Walkers later reference to the robbers' and thieves... Thanks
     
  6. asterisktom

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    Unfortunately China seems to be blocking my VPN so I cannot access that google site. I will try again later. It is in the Mark chapter.

    Edit: VPN is open again. I must have said the magic words. It is on pages 6-7.
     
    #6 asterisktom, Sep 16, 2014
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  7. tyndale1946

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    As far as your understanding did these robbers and thieves also prevent those coming to be baptised by John who called them a generation of vipers?
     
  8. asterisktom

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    Yes, I would say so. They are the same type of people. They seem to effectively block the way to heaven, not entering in, nor letting others enter in. I say "seem" because I believe that it is not in the power of anyone to ultimately hinder the elect's entrance, nor to effectively bar them.
     
  9. kyredneck

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    Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, even to the shepherds, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Woe unto the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the sheep? Ezek 34:2

    But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye enter not in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering in to enter. Mt 23:13

    for the kingdom of God is.....righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14:17

    I agree that it is not in the power of anyone to influence anyone else's eternal destiny, but it's an old evil under the sun for the supposed teachers of Israel to drive the sheep away from the kingdom of heaven. Still goes on today.
     
  10. asterisktom

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    Definitely agree. I hope no one thought I was saying otherwise. Lack of ability (to keep God's own people from the way) does not mean lack of culpability. God looks in the inward parts. He makes the wrath of man praise Him (Psalm 76), but also judges the wrathful.
     
  11. kyredneck

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    7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
    8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
    9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. Mt 3

    Brother Glen, I guess I've always viewed the Pharisees and Sadducees in this context more along the lines of false professors than hinderers, however because of the 'fear of the Jews' many who believed did not publically profess it, so in that way their presence alone probably did prevent some from being baptized. Had never thought of it that way before.
     
  12. tyndale1946

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    Yes I also got more light on explanation.

    Now I would like to digress a little as I have the book in front of me and I don't know if you have the book or not.

    On page 3 there is an interesting comment by Walker I never considered.

    He states... In Mark's Gospel (unlike the others) there is not a single episode that takes place within Jerusalem or its environs until Jesus' "triumphal entry" into the city (11:1)... So what is Jesus instituting until that "triumphal entry"... According to Zechariah 9:9 and what is the comparison... It this a statement from Jesus that he has set his house in order relating to all that came before the entry into the city?... To me the chapters in Mark before are a declaration of who he is and why he was sent... Food for thought!... For Tom and you and others who would like to join the conversation... Comments?
     
    #12 tyndale1946, Sep 18, 2014
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  13. Bro. Curtis

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    I think most of us are just enjoying this great discussion.

    I do have one question, although it seems pretty immature compared to what is being discussed.

    I see surmising that the authoritative Jews may have prevented some from being baptized, and it makes good sense, to me. I see baptism as a sacrament, not as a step in salvation. Are we all on the same page ?
     
  14. tyndale1946

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    I don't either and do not believe those involved in this discussion adhere to those points you make especially baptism as a step to Salvation . John the Baptist did warn those unbelieving Jews that there was a wrath to come when they sought baptism... The question is why?... Your thoughts and constructive agumentation.
     
  15. JamesL

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    I have begun to see the Kingdom of God in a different light than I used to.

    Somewhat along Dispensational lines, I definitely see a distinction between entering the Kingdom and inheriting the Kingdom. However, I do not see "entering" as a place, condition, etc.

    Most would place "entering" the Kingdom either at conversion or physical death, or both. Maybe like I'm a member in the Kingdom at conversion and fully enter upon death.

    But I see where Jesus said "seek ye first the Kingdom and His righteousness..."
    He also said "The Kingdom is among you"
    Paul said the Kingdom of God is joy, peace and righteousness in the Holy Spirit.

    Jesus said, "ask, seek, knock"

    In all the times He told them to ask, He was referring to the gift of God, the Holy Spirit. It is the righteousness found in regeneration which is the Kingdom of God.

    They did not receive this righteousness prior to the cross, see John 7:29 & Heb 9-10

    The Pharisees were preventing others and not entering, simply means they were bent on keeping everyone under the letter if the Law, which is against the Spirit
     
  16. Bro. Curtis

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    Because God is not mocked ?
     
  17. tyndale1946

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    After further consideration there definitely was a salvation to Johns Baptism... What you say?... That is not opinion I will let history speak!

    Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History Book 3, Chapter 5, Page 70.

    3. But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come there from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.
    4. But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable—all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, Daniel 9:27 stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire — all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.
    5. But it is necessary to state that this writer records that the multitude of those who were assembled from all Judea at the time of the Passover, to the number of three million souls, were shut up in Jerusalem as in a prison, to use his own words.
    6. For it was right that in the very days in which they had inflicted suffering upon the Saviour and the Benefactor of all, the Christ of God, that in those days, shut up as in a prison, they should meet with destruction at the hands of divine justice.
    7. But passing by the particular calamities which they suffered from the attempts made upon them by the sword and by other means, I think it necessary to relate only the misfortunes which the famine caused, that those who read this work may have some means of knowing that God was not long in executing vengeance upon them for their wickedness against the Christ of God.

    So History proves that those who were not Baptiised by John the Baptist perished and those that were, were saved.
     
  18. Bro. Curtis

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    There are folks referred to in scripture as believers who could have never been baptized.


    Are you taking spared, or saved ?
     
  19. tyndale1946

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    Do you have the book? We are discussing a book. If brethren who are of the same mindset as I have and want to take me to task with constructive criticism and disagree they may... Otherwise I stand by what I said! They as I have come to believe have the same perspective that I do.

    Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, that you receive not of her plagues.

    5: For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

    It depends on your perspective!
     
  20. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
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    No, I don't have the book, but Like I said, I liked the conversation, and had a question.
     

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