Absent from the body = Present with the Lord?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Glen Seeker, Nov 3, 2004.

  1. Glen Seeker

    Glen Seeker
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    I have seen a number of posts which say that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Did Paul really teach this?

    I would rather be out of a two bedroom house and living in a five bedroom one but this doesn't mean that there aren't any stages between the two.

    In just the same way, when Paul says that he would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord, is he negating any intermediary steps between the two?

    We know that we are sinners. We also know that nothing unclean can enter Heaven.

    Luther likened us to "dung heaps covered with snow." Can those "dungheaps" (sinners covered with the righteousness of Christ) enter Heaven?

    Unless they are totally cleaned (purged), the answer must be a resounding NO!

    The purging (cleaning) is Purtgatory. It is not a place. It is a process and unless our sinful souls go through this process of cleansing (Purgatory), then we have no way of entering Heaven.

    Aloha and God Bless
     
  2. Eric B

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    This world is basically the true "purgatory" where we are cleansed and made in the image of Christ, and whatever is not finished now will be finished upon the resurrection.
     
  3. LorrieGrace

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    To say that the crucifixtion of Christ was NOT enough is what a belief in purgatory is.
     
  4. Grasshopper

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    2 Cor.5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
     
  5. Bro Tony

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    My sins were paid in full on the cross of Calvary. Once and for all Jesus paid the price for my sins. My sins that were as red as scarlet are now white as snow. Jesus suffered for my sins so that I would not have to. There is no purgatory, whether a place or process. If there was one we would be denying that what Jesus did on the cross was enough. I am glad my salvation rest in His finished work and not my own goodness or works. Praise the Lord and thank you Jesus!!!!

    Bro Tony
     
  6. donnA

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    Why is it people who say they beleive in Jesus can not believe Jesus' death was enough for our salvation? Did He then, or does He now need help saving people? Anything but purely Jesus(no purgatory, no rituals) is not grace, and if it is not grace it is not salvation.
     
  7. Glen Seeker

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    Eric,

    "finished upon the Ressurection?" How? That finishing process is what I refer to as Purgatory. The final cleansing of our souls so that we may enter Heaven forever.

    Lorrie Grace,

    Paul said in Collossians 1:24
    I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

    Seems to me that, by his very words, he thought something was "lacking in the afflictions of Christ."

    Grasshopper, read my original post. I would rather be out of this two bedroom house and be living in a mansion in Hawaii. This is a statement of preference not of fact.

    Paul doesn't say that being out of the body equals being with Christ. He just states that that is what he would prefer. I'm sure that all of us feel the same way.

    Bro Tony, You said Jesus suffered for my sins so that I would not have to. Yet Paul was glad to be able to suffer for the sake of the church. If a saved person doesn't have to suffer, why does Paul say that he is willing and happy to suffer for them?

    Maybe we should just take that passage out of the Bible since, according to your statement it makes no sense at all.


    Aloha
     
  8. Glen Seeker

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    donnA,

    Does Jesus NEED help saving people? NO.
    Does He use help saving people? YES.

    Are you saved? How did that come about? You didn't live in a vacuum and have Jesus come to you and say,"I now save you."

    Jesus used a person to teach you and lead you so that you could open your heart to Him and accept the salvation He offers.

    Jesus didn't need the help, you did. He found it for you.

    No rituals?

    Didn't Jesus Himself give us a ritual in the Lord's Supper?

    That ritual was given to the Apostles and passed down to us almost two thousand years later. If the Apostles thought it was important enough to pass it on to the rest of the Church, I can do no other than to partake in that "ritual."

    God Bless
     
  9. LorrieGrace

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    You probably have to be baptised, too. So that is another thing that you are relying on.

    JESUS CHRIST PAID IT ALL!!!!!!

    What does our suffering for the church have to do with whether or not we are bought by the blood of Christ. It IS that simple! Jesus died on the cross!

    The Holy Spirit is what opens your heart to accept Jesus. No person on earth can do that. They can tell you about Jesus, but it is the Holy Spirit that touches the soul.

    Paul says in Phil 1:23: "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:"

    Paul KNOWS when he departs that he will be with Jesus. It does not mention an in between place. If he is not on this earth, then he is IMMEDIATELY with Christ!!!!!
     
  10. wopik

    wopik
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    Hello, Glen Seeker
    Hello, Grasshopper
    Notice, Paul did not say where he would go or when he would be with Christ.

    There is not one word mentioning heaven here, nor is there one word saying that he would be with Christ immediately.


    In 2Timothy 4:6-8 Paul wrote: "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

    Paul explains what he meant by being with Christ. He does not receive his reward immediately at death. But there is laid up a crown of righteousness which the Lord shall give him at that day. What day? At Christ's appearing----His second coming.

    In Isaiah 40:10 we notice this same day mentioned: "Behold, the Lord God will come….behold, his reward is with him…." See also Revelation 22: 12.

    To die is gain! In death, there is no knowledge of passing time (Eccl. 9: 5,6,10; Ps. 146: 4). THE NEXT MOMENT IS THE RESURRECTION!
     
  11. Bro Tony

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    Glen,

    Glad you asked. The Bible does not teach that a Christian will not have to suffer in this world, but that we should suffer for righteousness sake. As you said Paul talked about his suffering. Jesus said to His disciples, "In this world you will have trials and tribulation, but be of good cheer for I have overcome the world." There is clearly suffering for the believer who is walking in Christ in this world.

    That being said this suffering is not a suffering toward salvation, but a suffering for those who are saved. Jesus suffered for our sins, once and for all paying the price for all our sin. We do not suffer to pay for that which is already paid for. God poured out His wrath on His Son, and Jesus received in His body the full penalty for our sins. He does not need our help in satisfying God's righteous standard and payment.

    I have a question for you. What kind of sacrifice did God require for sin? Did it not have to be perfect, without spot or wrinkle? The One who die for our sins was the sinless Son of God. He would have to be or His sacrifice and suffering would not suffice. We sinners cannot die or suffer for our sins, we can only die and suffer in our sins. Jesus made us right with God. That is why Paul said, "you are now the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus".

    I am very grateful that my sins are completely paid for. I am also willing, like Paul, if that is God choice for me to suffer for the sake of the Gospel.

    Bro Tony
     
  12. donnA

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    If you think we help ourselves be saved you must not beleive in grace. Jesus does the saving all by Himself. Only His blood is for my salvation, nothing I do, nothing anyone does can save me.

    So you think the Lord's supper saved you?
    Again I say you must not beleive in grace.
    I thhink you misunderstand grace and salvation. Lord's supper is for thos who have been saved already, not for anyone salvaation. Anyone counting on anyhting they do for salvation is going to get a surprise.
     
  13. Eric B

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    And Christ can (will) finish us instantly upon death or resurrection. He will not need some other world to continue afflicting us to make us grow even more. Suffering to grow is here, not when we die. Those who grow more receive more crowns; not all being being forced after life to get all the same crowns.
     
  14. wopik

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    Good Master, what must I do to inherit eternal life?

    If you will enter into life, keep the commadments (Matt 19:16-19 / Rev 14:12).
     
  15. Seth3

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    Yet there is

    Romans 7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.

    Neh 10:29 They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;


    (were these also written for our instruction?)

    God Bless

    Seth3
     
  16. Seth3

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    John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall WE DO, THAT WE MIGHT WORK the works of God?

    John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YE BELIEVE on HIM whom he hath sent.


    John 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, MOSES GAVE YOU NOT that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

    John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that BELIEVETH ON ME **HATH EVERLASTING LIFE.

    John 6:48 I am that bread of life.

    The works of God=Believe on Christ he that BELIEVES (only works we do) Hath everlasting life.

    He who does not believe goes back to the Law under the curse to be justified not by faith but by Law.

    God Bless

    Seth3
     
  17. wopik

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    sure. that's because breaking the law has a death penalty (Rom 6:23) -- which Jesus paid in full.

    Now we belong to Him. We don't willfully break those laws that caused the need for His death.


    the law is not the curse!

    'the curse' of the law is DEATH -- which Jesus paid in full.
     
  18. Seth3

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    Amen Wopic I agree, the law is holy just and true but I was showing under it not that IT was a curse. We were never under it.


    Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

    Gal 5:4 Christ is become of NO EFFECT unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    We just don't want to fall short of His all sufficient grace and turn back.


    In otherwords keep walking in the Grace of God.


    God bless

    Seth3
     
  19. billwald

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    When I wake in the morning, how do I know whom I am? Because I remember a person history which includes going to bed. I have no way to know what happened between falling asleep and waking up and if there isn't any physical evidence on my body it doessn't make any difference what happened as long as I wake in the same place that I remember falling asleep.

    If I was to wake in Heaven . . . or Hell . . . no way to tell if there was an intermediate state.

    Second, thus all of "personhood" is memories. If someone could blank my memories and put in new ones, "I," my body would be the new person.

    Say my memories could be copied while I was asleep and put into a new body. Each body would remember falling asleep and waking. Now, if the new body was a computer memory . . . .
     
  20. wopik

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    Seth3,

    IMO, we are freed from it [death penalty]. We are not freed from obeying the Law, except those sacrifical laws that were our school master to point us to Christ.

    The end-time Church are still those who are keeping the Commandments of God (Rev 14:12).
     

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