Abu Mazen

KenH · Jan 16, 2005

You have to remember, Joseph, that LadyEagle would not support the creation of a Palestinian State under any circumstances. You and I would support such a creation under the right set of circumstances as has been mentioned before.

Therefore, in LE's thinking, you and I support terrorists.

church mouse guy · Jan 16, 2005

Originally posted by KenH:
You asked for a definition of Christian Zionism. So let's stick to that. I think we both agree that those who worship according to the tenets of Judaism and Islam will go to Hell.
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You start a point-of-view based on theology and when I show that your link has very bad theology, you nevertheless claim that I have to deal with the issue in spite of the craziness on those who have defined their political enemies by the crazy name of Christian Zionists, a clear stab at the Zionist movement of Jews.

church mouse guy · Jan 16, 2005

I just want someone to tell me how such a state is viable. It is in the news today that some Palestinians were murdered in their homes on the suspicion that they cooperated with Israel. No trial, no arrest, no due process--just shot in the head and thrown in a dumpster. This is a nation?

Joseph_Botwinick · Jan 16, 2005

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
I think a lot of what you link is beside the point. It ignores the history of how the current situation came about. It asks the West to ratify the Arab position willy nilly. But I especially object to the statement by your author:

Palestinians are not enemies of God

Let us remember that the Palestinian Arab people are not idolaters. They worship the God of Abraham. The moral standards of the Palestinians in general put most Americans to shame. What is happening to the Palestinians today certainly is not a judgment from God, but a result of political greed and man’s inhumanity to man.

I do not know what he means when he says that Palestinians worship the God of Abraham. I think this is the old lie that Allah and Jesus are the same. The Palestinians have engaged in terrorism and they do not put Americans to shame on any point.
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CMG,

You understand that not all Palestinians are Muslims, right? Some Palestinians claim Christianity as their religion. I believe we even had a Palestinain Christian at one time as a posting member of this board. His name was Abe Atta.

Joseph Botwinick

KenH · Jan 16, 2005

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
You start a point-of-view based on theology and when I show that your link has very bad theology
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I used the link only for the definition. Try this link that I wanted to use but didn't get the link to work earlier:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

KenH · Jan 16, 2005

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
I just want someone to tell me how such a state is viable.
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I guess you never read about the events leading up to the forming of these United States, eh?

Sorry, cmg, but starting a democracy is hard, messy work.

church mouse guy · Jan 16, 2005

You are off the mark. Neither LE nor I are Christian Zionists, which is a smear term. The fact of the matter is that Gaza is just one big ghetto or slum with little or no economic activity and a gangster government. Cut off European and American aid--which cannot last forever--and you have starvation and disease added to the current unemployment.

KenH · Jan 16, 2005

Lots of Christian Zionists are self-proclaimed, cmg. I would advise you to research the subject.

LadyEagle · Jan 16, 2005

You understand that not all Palestinians are Muslims, right? Some Palestinians claim Christianity as their religion.
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And of course, a Muslim Palestinian state, will be the best scenario for them, we all know. Especially when they announce they are going to have sharia law.

Oh, but I forgot, you were the one who was all for the Islamic state we created in Iraq and it didn't seem to matter about the Assyrian Christians. Shall I dig up the link so you can be quoted?

Joseph_Botwinick · Jan 16, 2005

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
You are off the mark. Neither LE nor I are Christian Zionists, which is a smear term. The fact of the matter is that Gaza is just one big ghetto or slum with little or no economic activity and a gangster government. Cut off European and American aid--which cannot last forever--and you have starvation and disease added to the current unemployment.
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You already have that now even with the aid, which is why this oppressive government needs to be reformed as a step towards peace and a Palestinian state. I believe the majority of Palestinians are being oppressed by a regime which takes all the aid and gives it to terrorists groups to instill fear into the average Palestinians. That is why the government must be changed. There must be reciprocity in the form of democratic and human rights reforms in return for a state. The alternative is to turn our backs on the Palestinian and Israeli people while we argue against peace for Israelis and Palestinians and wait for the Jews to fullfill some pre-mil end times theology.

Joseph Botwinick

Joseph_Botwinick · Jan 16, 2005

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You understand that not all Palestinians are Muslims, right? Some Palestinians claim Christianity as their religion.
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And of course, a Muslim Palestinian state, will be the best scenario for them, we all know. Especially when they announce they are going to have sharia law.

Oh, but I forgot, you were the one who was all for the Islamic state we created in Iraq and it didn't seem to matter about the Assyrian Christians. Shall I dig up the link so you can be quoted? </font>[/QUOTE]So LE,

Do you now care about the fate of Palestinian Christians who are starving to death? Do you care that they are being oppressed by their government? Where do you think they should go live? In an Islamic state outside of Israel? Or, are you pretty much indifferent to their plight as you think they are all terrorists?

Joseph Botwinick

LadyEagle · Jan 16, 2005

Why are you in favor of a government which takes handouts from the UN and oppresses the people, Joseph? Why are you in favor of rewarding their oppressive behavior? You haven't answered my question, because you can't---How much better off will the Palestinian Christians be once the terrorists are rewarded with their own Palestinian state? And not all Muslims, even, are for a Palestinian state.

A Brave Muslim

Posted Dec 31 2004

Salah Uddin Shoaib Choudhury is a Muslim journalist imprisoned by Bangladesh for urging his country to recognize Israel, warning of the radical islam's rise and its growing influence in Bangladesh, and foradvocating interfaith dialogue among Jews, Muslims, and Christians. He also published pro-Israeli articles by himself and others. He has been in prison for over a year with no immediate hope of release. His family has been impoverished and attacked, his property looted with impunity, and the police refuse to lift a finger in their defense. My friend Shoaib is trying to let the world know that there are many Muslims who desire peace with Israel and people of all faiths, but the radicals in Bangladesh are trying to silence him. Please help!
Visit the web site dedicated to his release, www.freechoudhury.com , and read more about the situation and what you can do. And please, please sign the petition to release him, which is linked at the web site.
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And here is his speech he was to give that he was imprisoned for:

"The Media and a Culture of Peace"

(RB: To have been delivered by Salah Uddin Shoaib Choudhury to IFLAC’s writers’ symposium; Tel Aviv, Israel; December 2003]

Excellencies, distinguished delegates and guests,

My brothers and sisters:

Boker Tove

Shalom and Salam!

What a thrill it is for me be here in Israel! You know, it might be unexpected from a Bangladeshi, but I must tell you that coming here has been a lifelong dream of mine. The moment I stepped off the plane and onto Israeli soil, I realized that dream; and I cannot thank you enough for helping to make it a reality.

Thank you, too, and all the wonderful people of Israel, who have shown me nothing but kindness and hospitality since my arrival here.

Let me also express my sincerest gratitude to the Hebrew Writers Association in Israel, for inviting me to participate in this conference; to Professor Ada Aharoni, Head of the Association’s Foreign Relations Committee and President of IFLAC; and to all the members of IFLAC for graciously appointing me as its first Bangladeshi delegate. Thank you, too, to Mr. Ilan Fluss of the Foreign Ministry, without whose support and cooperation, I could not attend this conference in due time. You know, thanks to Mr. Fluss, I had only to circle the globe once to get here from Dhaka.

Today, I stand before you, the people of Bangladesh and in fact the entire Moslem world as a witness; a witness that Israelis want above all else peace and justice. And those who spread false rumors to the contrary around the world, and especially in Moslem countries, are, frankly, either deluded or dishonest.

I also stand before you perhaps as a living contradiction: a Zionist, a defender of Israel, and a devout, practicing Muslim, living in a Moslem country.

Like you—and my many pro-Israeli brothers and sisters—I believe in the justice of the Zionist dream. I also acknowledge this historical reality: that the world has endeavored to crush that dream and, yes, even to destroy the viability of the Jewish people. At the same time, I live in an environment where people believe just as passionately in an opposing view—one that sees Israel as illegitimate; and the Jewish people as evil incarnate. Witness the recent statement of outgoing Malaysian Prime Minister Mohammed that "Jews rule the world." But even more significant than his public idiocy is the fact that every one of the 57 delegates who heard those words applauded him for it. To my own chagrin, this included the Bangladeshi representative, as well. I assure you, he was not speaking for me. And these people were not merely caught up in the heat of the moment. To a man, they defended him, and even continue to do so.

Certainly, we could engage in extensive discussions about the content of those opposing views and how people like Mohamad justify their positions. At the moment, however, I am far more concerned about their practical support structures, and in particular, how the media promote either a Culture of Peace or a Culture of Death.

And as we meet here today, our world so terribly needs a Culture of Peace, doesn’t it? We’ve almost become inured to the regular onslaught of killings, such that a terrorist attack claiming "only one" victim hardly registers a blip on the international media’s radar screen. What has happened to us as a planet when we come to expect the unending news of death and destruction, of children being deliberately gunned down in their beds, and of the public adulation that the murderers receive afterwards?

But let us also be clear about something else. A true Culture of Peace is not merely the cessation of hostilities. It is far more than that and includes Justice and Tolerance for all people. A true Culture of Peace is one that allows each person to have pride in one’s own faith, while respecting the pride that courses through the veins of those who follow other paths to G-d.

Unfortunately, too often, that goal seems far out of reach. Who can fail to be moved by the news of innocents—children—being cruelly murdered while riding a bus to school; or the thought of infants being blown to bits, along with their mothers in whose arms they lay? How recently was it that entire families were wiped out by a terrorist’s bomb in Haifa? The litany could go on and on.

To make matters worse, these atrocities were carried out by those who claim—falsely, I must add; dishonestly—who claim to be acting in the name of Islam, and in the name of G-d—of G-d!

I asked who could fail to be moved. I have an answer: most of the world’s 1.3 billion Muslims, that’s who; the delegates who applauded Mahathir Mohamad’s anti-Jewish rant; and too many others, that’s who. But why? Do these people have no heart, no soul? Are we Muslims incapable of feeling your pain? Of course, that is not so.

We are all—you and I included—prisoners of the world in which we live; and the Muslim world, unfortunately, still remains captive within that Culture of Death.

In Israel, you have any number of viewpoints being aired in any number of forums. You have Likud; you have Labor. You have Shas; you have Shin-nu-ee. You have Peace Now; you have the Temple Mount Faithful. You have The Jerusalem Post; you have Ha-aretz! It’s ironic. Most of the Moslem world takes that as a sign of weakness and disunity; a lack of resolve; while we know that your ability to accommodate different viewpoints is your great strength. It’s messy, to be sure. But the fact that you do not feel it necessary to control the flow of information and opinion to your people means that you respect them far more than we do ours—from whom we keep the news, and to whom we foreswear open dialogue—especially when it comes to Israel and the Jewish people.

In recent months, the Moslem press has presented slander as fact, lies as truth, hate as religion. We have told our people that myths and biases once thought a relic of bygone eras of ignorance, are not myths but reality. Syrian Defense Minister Mustafa Tlass cannot print copies of his slanderous Matzah of Zion fast enough, so convinced are we of the anti-Jewish blood libel. A recent variant that had Jews using Moslem blood to make hamantashen, was featured prominently throughout Moslem media. And I know you are all familiar with last year’s Ramadan series, Horseman without a Horse, an Egyptian resurrection of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. And very few people in the Moslem world believe that the Shoah really took place. In fact, many believe that the extent to which it did happen, it was a plot hatched between Nazis and Zionists to transfer Judaism’s center from Europe to the Middle East.

I’ve read your holy books; and no religion is as consistent in its proscription on the consumption of blood as Judaism. Yet, we Muslims believe the lie. The Shoah is the most documented atrocity of all times; yet we Muslims believe the lie. And just about any other lie that we hear again and again and again so long as it vilifies you and supports our corrupted worldview.

Please, my brothers and sisters, please do not think us all ignorant or evil. For we are not. We are, however, prisoners; prisoners of contrived ignorance and of evil by fiat; and a way out of this Culture of Death, Tikvah—hope, runs through the media.
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Rest of his speech is at the web site.

church mouse guy · Jan 16, 2005

I think that the USA and Europe should stop imposing statehood for the Arabs on Israel. If I were a Christian Arab, I would be moving out of Arab controlled areas. Look what the Arabs have done to Bethlehem. Arafat spoiled Christmas there by insisting that he should attend Christmas Eve services--what a farce.

We should no more interfere in Gaza and the Bank than we should interfere in Algeria. Let the Palestinians have their civil war. Israel can talk to the survivors. Gaza belongs either to Egypt or Israel. The Bank belongs to Israel.

Joseph_Botwinick · Jan 16, 2005

I am not in favor of an oppressive government. Read my posts and that will become abundantly clear to you. I am in favor of linking a Palestinian state to democratic and human rights reforms. If we do this, they will no longer be an oppressive state that supports terrorism. They should not recieve any aid or support without these reforms being implemented. Reciprocity must be the order of the day, not the mistakes of Oslo. I do wish that you would stop the dishonesty and stop misrepresenting my views, and have a serious discussion about the issues.

Now, LE, what do you think should happen with all those Palestinian Christians? Which Muslim State should they be shipped off to so Israel can have all the land to itself and fullfill your pre-mil dreams?

Joseph Botwinick

LadyEagle · Jan 16, 2005

Israeli Bedouin Dispels Myth

By Sarah Dolgoy
Ishmael M. Khaldi, an Israeli Bedouin, addressed the issue of Israeli pluralism during his talk on November 11 at Moot Court.

The Bedouin people make up 10 per cent of the Arab population in Israel, making the group a minority within a minority.

"Bedouins are committed to the state of Israel," said Khaldi.

Khaldi was inspired to travel to North America and speak after fighting broke out between Arabs and Israelis following the failure of the 2001 Camp David Peace Accords.

Israel has been ascribed a tarnished image, said Khaldi.

"I have met people that [didn't] want to say the word 'Israel.'"

Khaldi stressed, however, that "Bedouins today are part of Israel."

With the creation of Israel in 1948, leaders of the state "designed a Jewish-Bedouin relationship" incorporating Bedouins into Israeli democracy and bureaucracy, noted Khaldi.

"For the first time in our lives, we found ourselves in a regime... that was interested in fulfilling our needs... [and] it was the Jewish state," said Khaldi. Still, considering that Bedouin culture is generally a nomadic society, Khaldi said, "[absolute] integration into Israeli society is a process that will take a long time."

Khaldi also discussed the perception of Israel.

"On every campus in the world there's an anti-Israeli movement," said Khaldi, who felt that the negative views are unwarranted. "We have witnessed that Israel, as the only democracy in the Middle East, treats Bedouins, part of the Arab/Muslim minority, as equal citizens."

Khaldi said that he has often experienced discrimination or attacks because of his pro-Israeli views.

"The Bedouins are a part of the larger Arab minority... [and] they don't like us because we are a part of Israel," he said. "[The] Arab world looks at us as enemies."

David Herz, an event organizer and Israeli activism chair for Hillel, said Khaldi delivered a message of hope. An important message of the event "was the debunking of the impression that Israel is only a state for the Jews," said Herz.

"[Khaldi] shows that the Jewish state [is] a pluralistic and multi-ethnic... as well as a Jewish state."
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http://www.ishmaelkhaldi.com/McGill.htm

KenH · Jan 16, 2005

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
The Bank belongs to Israel.
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Nope. Not unless there is a negotiated settlement in the future that so states.

KenH · Jan 16, 2005

You have to remember, Joseph, that some people are opposed to democracy in Iraq that allows them to choose their own leaders, while some of us advocate democracy, even if the leaders chosen might not be the ones we would prefer.

Some people want self-determination only for themselves, not others.

Joseph_Botwinick · Jan 16, 2005

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
We should no more interfere in Gaza and the Bank than we should interfere in Algeria. Let the Palestinians have their civil war. Israel can talk to the survivors. Gaza belongs either to Egypt or Israel. The Bank belongs to Israel.
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Too bad the only survivors in this civil war will be the terrorists who are armed to the teeth by their oppressive government. I am sure we could talk to them and make peace, right? We are certainly willing to sacrifice the expendable lives of the oppressed Palestinians, right?

Joseph Botwinick

church mouse guy · Jan 16, 2005

No, but the sorry mess is not our doing. For one, the Pope made the mess worse. He represents European viewpoint. I don't see Europe all upset about the Algerian civil war, do you? Islam tends to revert to despotism because first comes Islamic law and then comes Islamic civil war because some people do not obey the Islamic law well enough. Plus it is a severe barbaric law. The history of the middle east since the days of Rome is one of oriental despotism. I can't see any change. The king used to be god or in charge of the religion. It is still the same. The middle east gravitates towards a government that combines political power with Islamic religion. The Islamic religion itself is part of the problem.

The Turks solved the problem when they threw the clerics out and insisted upon a secular state or else the army would overthrow the government. The middle east is going to have to move to secular government to avoid internal bloodbaths.

The USA should worry about Iran, well on the way to the atomic bomb and promising to use it right away against Israel.

KenH · Jan 16, 2005

I don't think that Iran will use a nuclear weapon against Israel in a first strike. If they did, then Tehran would cease to exist shortly thereafter.

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