Abused Scriptures Against OSAS

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Jul 5, 2013.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    There arere several scriptures usually found in a listed fashion without context that have a superficial appearance of contradiction to the OSAS position. However, when these scriptures are placed in their rightful context the superficial appearance of contradiction vanishes.

    1. Ezek 18 -

    a. The Location is "in the land of Israel" not in heaven and civil court action in Israel- v. 2

    2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge? 3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.


    b. The Subject - "a proverb" used in Israel - vv. 2-3

    2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge? 3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.


    c. Jewish Court Penalties - PHYSICAL not spiritual penalites

    The civil courts in the land of Israel were punishing children for their father's transgressions. This involved the PHYSICAL death penalty for some sins of their fathers while lesser penalities for other sins.

    14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father’s sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
    15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour’s wife,
    16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
    17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
    18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
    19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.


    The Jewish court system was punishing the righteous son for his father's crimes (v. 19).

    CONCLUSION: This text has nothing to do with eternal judgement before God but only civil judgement before men in the Jewish courts of Israel who were practicing unjust condemnations toward the children of a wicked father so that this "unequal" practice became known in a "proverb" among them.

    This has nothing to do with spiritual salvation and then loss of salvation but about civil jurisprudence within the nation of Israel.
     
  2. The Biblicist

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    2. Matthew 18 and the Wicked Servant

    Mt. 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

    Mt. 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

    The Master exacted of the Wicked servant exactly what the wicked servant exacted of his debtor. The wicked servant could not send anyone to purgatory or hell, therefore, Eternal punishment is not in view for either the wicked servant's debtor or for the wicked servant. The principle is as a man soweth that shall he also reap and both are TEMPORAL punishments that occur HERE AND NOW in this life.

    This parable is introduced by Peter's question how oft should he forgive his brother - seventy times seventy? The Lord's response is to provide a parable to illustrate the immense difference of how much God has forgiven them in comparison of how little any fellow servant would be in need of their forgiveness. If a child of God would not forgive a fellow servant such a trifle HERE AND NOW but make them PAY for their sins against them HERE AND NOW, so would the heavenly Father make that unforgiving servant pay HERE AND NOW for THIS PARTICULAR SIN OF UNFORGIVENESS against his fellow servant HERE AND NOW. He is not talking about the ten thousand talents as that could never be paid in full. He is talking about the sin against his fellow servant, the temporal punishment until that sin is paid in full - meaning until he learns this lesson of how great God has forgiving him in comparison to how meager any sin against him by any fellow servant really is in comparison. Many of us have been put to the "tormentors" in time past and have learnt this lesson the hard way.
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    Matthew 10:32-33

    Mt. 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
    33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven
    .

    The Context is dealing with "fear" as a result of standing up for the Lord against those who are God's enemies and who would kill or persecute you (v. 28) in order to take their vengeance toward God out on you.

    Enduring to the end in order to be saved has to do with salvation of your PHYSICAL life by FLEEING persecution to another city:

    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
    23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.


    If you want to endure this kind of hatred and persecution then "FLEE" from it (v. 23) and that is how one "endureth to the end."

    The denial here is not entrance into heaven but rewards for faithfulness in the face of death or persecution.

    39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
    40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
    41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
    42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.


    You save your life in the form of rewards by losing it for the Lord's sake. This has to do with the present tense aspect of salvation - the salvation of the soul/life. If you save your life by lack of faithfulness due to fear then you lose your PHYSICAL daily life or it will fail to be acknolwedge by the Lord in the day of rewards. You "redeem the time" by faithfulness under the leadership of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 5:16-18). If "fear" turns you from faithfulness then that time is not redeemed but lost, wasted, bur ed in regard to the service of Christ. In direct contrast if you remain faithful in the face of death and persecution for his name sake you "redeem the time" and it is saved and made to count for the glory of God and you receive it back again in the form of rewards.
     
    #3 The Biblicist, Jul 5, 2013
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  4. BobRyan

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    I knew if I cam here - I would see them abused.
     
  5. The Biblicist

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    Well certainly you would because I am presenting how YOU abused them. Note the title of the OP.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Sadly your entire attempt at downsizing Ezek 18 in a sacrifice-all attempt to get OSAS to survive the text - fails horribly.

    1. In Ezek 18 all the wicked die - and none of the righteous die.
    2. In Ezek 18 all of the wicked that turn back from their wicked ways live.
    3. Ezek is writing at a time of Israel's utter rebellion against God - and after Jerusalem has been wiped out by the Babylonians - not much going on in Jerusalem in terms of all the wicked meeting instant judgment at the hand of super-obedient or super-strict conservative jews.

    Your entire effort to downsize the text - ignores all the major details of the chapter - and simply looks for an 'any-ol-excuse-will-do" solution to save OSAS.

    How "surprising".

    Let's try that downsize-at-all-costs on something like John 3:16 to help you see just how transparently flawed your method has been so far.

    In John 3:16 "God so Loved the World - yes really" - but applying the same sacrifice-all-for-Calvinism methods you use above - we can say this

    1. God does not really so love the World - because this is a case of Christ speaking to Nicodemus -

    2. Nicodemus - A man - not a woman, not a child - so this "So loved the World" is specific to men.

    3. Nicodemus - a pharisee - so this "God so Loved the World" is not about the world of all men - but the world of all adult male Pharisees.

    4. Nicodemus - a Pharisee seeking Christ by night and asking what must I do to be saved - so this "God so Loved the World" is not even the world of all adult male Pharisees - but rather all adult male Pharisees - seeking out Christ with the question "What must i do to be saved" - this then is the "WORLD" that God so loves -

    The fact that this sort of sacrifice-all-to-try-and-save-OSAS method appeals to you says more about your dedication to OSAS than the actual intent of the author in providing the Bible text at hand.

    I doubt that you viewed your method as being quite this transparently obvious to the objective unbiased reader when you first suggested it. But I can assure you - it is much more clear that you seem to have at first imagined.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, Jul 5, 2013
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  7. BobRyan

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    Here is how I actually introduce the Matt 18 example given by Christ that utterly debunks OSAS.

    Oddly enough the section of Matt 18 quoted above is hardly even mentioned in your response - as if the very quote of it is too devastating a thing for OSAS to be expected to survive.

    note "the details".

    1. The king insists that he "Forgave ALL" that debt.
    2. The king insists that the slave forgive others in the same way that the slave had truly BEEN forgiven.
    3. The slave's error was NOT in doing unto others AS he had been done unto by the king - but rather in NOT doing unto others AS he had been done unto by the king.
    4. ALL the original debt is returned to the slave.
    5. Jesus argues the point "SO shall My FATHER do to EACH of you" IF you do not forgive others - just as you have been forgiven by God of your great debt of sin.

    In your response -- the effort to spare OSAS required that you ignore almost every detail in the text.




    God does not say in Matt 18 - nor ever - that in this life all the wicked suffer and all the righteous eat cake.

    In fact "if we have hope in this life only - then we are of all mankind - most miserable" 1Cor 15 for as Paul says in 1Cor 15 - " I die daily".

    In Matt 18 God's forgiveness of our real sins - the real debt of the 2nd death paid in full in our behalf - is revoked if we fail to forgive others their minor indebtedness to us - at least if we believe Christ and not the man-made tradition of OSAS.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #7 BobRyan, Jul 5, 2013
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  8. The Biblicist

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    That is simply not true! First God condemns Israel for applying this proverb where the rightoues do die.

    Second, you are confusing what God says SHOULD be their practice with what WAS their practice. God is setting forth the proper application for them to follow. However, you are making the CORRECTION to be indeed the FACT when it is not or else no correction would have been necessary.
     
  9. The Biblicist

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    So far so good.


    The text does not say that. That is your assumption. The original debt could not be paid but this debt is something that can be paid for. What he is paying for is his sin against his servant which can be paid for under "tormentors."



    He is not speaking of "all the wicked" but only of His own "servants" and "the kingdom of heaven is like" Hebrews 12:5-10 does demand that in this life "his servant" does receive chastening for such sins.

    Your mixing apples and oranges. The first part of your quote has to do with DENIAL OF THE RESURRECTION while the second quote has to do with suffering of Paul for preaching the resurrection. However, this is how you treat scriptures normally - misinterpret, misapply, jerk out of context.

     
  10. The Biblicist

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    First, you miss a very fundemental principle in Biblical hermeutics. The word "world" must be interpreted within the boundaries of its actual use in the New Testament. According to your warped thinking there is no other use but one meaning "every offspring of Adam from Genesis to revelation" or "all mankind without exception." However, the term "world" is used at least seven different ways and Strongs gives eight different usages.

    1. The physical material created world
    2. Hyperbole - "turned the world upside down" etc.
    3. Gentiles in contrast to Israel - Rom. 11:12
    4. System of evil - "I pray not for the world"
    5. orderly arrangement of things
    6. All men without exception
    7. all men without distinction
    8. the lost world
    9. the saved world

    However, your narrow mentality demands only one meaning of the term world and you make that assumption without due study of the context. So all the presumptive examples you furnish as a smoke screen to ignore genuine contextual indicators is a cultic ruse.

    1. No Biblical usage of the term "world' is applied to adult males only

    2. No Biblical usage ofa the term "world" is applied to Pharisees as a class from the rest of mankind.

    Contextually he is speaking to a Jewish theologion that beleived salvation is restricted to Israel and Gentiles must become Jews to be saved. This can be seen in John 4 as well in the discussion with the Samaritan woman as Jesus clearly says "salvation is of the Jews."

    Hence, the meaning "all mankind without distinction of class, race, gender" is not only a valid Biblical meaning but it corresponds exactly with the repeated salvation statements that in Christ there is neither "Jew or Gentile, bond or free, male or female." It corresponds perfectly with the group identified as saved:

    And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; - Rev. 5:9

    You are using Satan's methods in handling the Scriptures, jerking texts out of context, ignoring the context, perverting the words of others, etc.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    John 1

    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

    What world is that according to John 1- it is the one that "Christ made" according to John 1

    What human comes into the world? Everyone that is born!

    So then everyone that is born is enlightened by Christ - the true light of the world.

    John sticks with this theme in John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD - yes really!"

    And in John 16 - The Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

    Calvinism's debunking is almost endless in the Gospel of John -- as expected.
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    So far so good. But all of sudden you jump ship, jump to another context because this one does not support your conclusions. Physical life is the light of men coming into the world, the physical world. Spiritual life also comes from God (Jn. 1:12-3). Jesus is the "true" light as he is the source of BOTH.

    John 1:9 refers to PHYSICAL LIFE given by the Creator to every man as they come into the physical world as that requires the gift of PHYSICAL LIFE. That is the immediate context.

    Jumping ship and trying to merge John 3 with John 1 simply is mixing apples with oranges.

    John 1:4 defines the "light" of Christ as "LIFE" that He gives to those coming into the world - PHYSICAL LIFE and which he gives to believers who receive Him as Savior - SPIRITUAL LIFE (Jn. 1:12-13).
     
  13. BobRyan

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    This is John 1

    John 1

    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

    What world is that according to John 1- it is the one that "Christ made" according to John 1

    What human comes into the world? Everyone that is born!

    So then everyone that is born is enlightened by Christ - the true light of the world.


    John 1 is the context and preface to John 3 -- obviously

    John sticks with this theme in John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD - yes really!"


    John 3 is the context and preface for John 16 - obviously.

    And in John 16 - The Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

    Calvinism's debunking is almost endless in the Gospel of John -- as expected.
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    Again NATURAL PHYSICAL LIFE in a NATURAL PHYSICAL WORLD - Jn. 1:4-9 - that is the context and no matter how many times you quote this text it does not change that context. No matter how many times you try to link it to John 3:16 it does not link as they are two different contexts talking about two different worlds. The world in John 1:2-10 is the PHYSICAL CREATED world whereas the "world" in John 3:16 is the world of HUMANITY.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Christ is the spiritual light that coming into the world - enlightens all.

    He is not the visible sun coming into the world - but the spiritual light coming into the world.

    I think we all knew that.

    9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

    What world is that according to John 1- it is the one that "Christ made" according to John 1

    What human comes into the world? Everyone that is born!

    So then everyone that is born is enlightened by Christ - the true light of the world.



    First of all it is refreshing to find a Calvinist who will admit to that point in John 3:16 - as opposed to trying to downsize world "even more".

    Secondly - Jonah 4:11 appears to suggest that God cares about more than humans.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #15 BobRyan, Jul 9, 2013
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  16. The Biblicist

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    Repeating your nonsense does not change the contextual factors that completely repudiate your intepretations.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Repeating your insults does not answer the unanswered points you are leaving open.
     
  18. The Biblicist

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    It is no insult to call your interpetation "nonsense" as you have used very similar words to respond to my Sabbath position. I never left any point unanswered because you have no CONTEXTUAL basis for your interpertation. You are simply FORCING your interpretation or READING IT INTO the text.

    The context is clear. The "light" in this context is PHSYCIAL LIFE - and it is a PHYSICAL world or that which was CREATED in John 1:3-4,10 that mankind comes into.

    The context in John 3 is completely different. John 3 is not speaking about any kind of entrance into the world but rather God's redemptive purposes for the world of mankind ("whosoever"). The "light" in John 3:18-19 does not refer to PHYSICAL LIFE but is being used as a metaphor for "TRUTH".

    Two different contexts speaking about two different things and yet you are completely ignoring the contextual distinctions and forcing them to refer to the same thing - your perverted interpretation of John 1:9.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    In addition to not being able to answer the points raised in John 1, John 3, John 16 regarding "world" - you have the problem of Matt 18 unanswered.

    ==================================

    BobRyan;2006520

    Here is how I actually introduce the Matt 18 example given by Christ that utterly debunks OSAS.

    ============
    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    [FONT=&quot]

    Rom 11
    20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.

    21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

    22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off


    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]"Forgiveness revoked" model as Matt 18

    Matt 18
    32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
    33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
    34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
    35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.[/FONT][/FONT]

    ===========


    Oddly enough the section of Matt 18 quoted above is hardly even mentioned in your response - as if the very quote of it is too devastating a thing for OSAS to be expected to survive.

    note "the details".

    1. The king insists that he "Forgave ALL" that debt.
    2. The king insists that the slave forgive others in the same way that the slave had truly BEEN forgiven.
    3. The slave's error was NOT in doing unto others AS he had been done unto by the king - but rather in NOT doing unto others AS he had been done unto by the king.
    4. ALL the original debt is returned to the slave.
    5. Jesus argues the point "SO shall My FATHER do to EACH of you" IF you do not forgive others - just as you have been forgiven by God of your great debt of sin.

    In your response -- the effort to spare OSAS required that you ignore almost every detail in the text.




    God does not say in Matt 18 - nor ever - that in this life all the wicked suffer and all the righteous eat cake.

    In fact "if we have hope in this life only - then we are of all mankind - most miserable" 1Cor 15 for as Paul says in 1Cor 15 - " I die daily".

    In Matt 18 God's forgiveness of our real sins - the real debt of the 2nd death paid in full in our behalf - is revoked if we fail to forgive others their minor indebtedness to us - at least if we believe Christ and not the man-made tradition of OSAS.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    You handle the word of God dishonestly. I have answered these texts many times and your only response is to repeat the list - period!
     

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