Accuracy demands likeness ???????

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by MB, Apr 15, 2009.

  1. MB

    MB
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    Is the repentance of Sin in scripture either in the Alexandrian or other manuscripts?
     
  2. Tater77

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    If your question is, does the Alexandrian mss tell you to repent for you sins, then yes is your answer.

    But I'm not sure I understand the question as you have phrased it.
     
  3. franklinmonroe

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    If the NIV text, for example, is an accurate reflection of Alexandrian manuscripts then --
    And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. (Mark 1:4, NIV)

    He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. (Luke 3:3, NIV)

    I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (Luke 5:32, NIV)

    He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
    and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." (Luke 24:46-47, NIV)

    Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38, NIV)

    Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, (Acts 3:19, NIV)

    God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. (Acts 5:31, NIV)

    I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged. (2 Corinthians 12:21, NIV)
    The answer is: Yes.
     
    #3 franklinmonroe, Apr 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2009
  4. MB

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    I should have been more specific that's my fault. I know the word repentance means to turn from one thing to another but, is that thing ever stated to be sin.
    MB
     
  5. EdSutton

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    Ah! Noticed that, I see.

    I've asked these same questions for 3 Yr. plus on the BB.

    Perhaps you might be interested in checking some of these out.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=31491&postcount=4

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=78863&postcount=29

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=833872&postcount=135

    That's a start, at least.

    Ed
     
  6. MB

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    Hi Ed;
    Thankyou for the information it helped .
    MB
     
  7. stilllearning

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    Hi MB

    You said............
    Well this is not exactly right; Repentance means to “change your mind”.
    This is why when you look in the Old Testament, that God does more repenting, than anyone else.
    --------------------------------------------------
    But to answer your question, here is what the Bible says.........
    2 Corinthians 7:10
    “For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:
    but the sorrow of the world worketh death.”

    Now, although this verse doesn’t mention repenting of sin, the context of this chapter, tells us that it was sin that they were sorry about.......

    2 Corinthians 7:1
    “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves
    from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    Well, no. The Hebrew word is shub, and I don't think it is usually used about God.
     
  9. EdSutton

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    You might want to recheck this. I believe the word 'shuwb' or 'shub' (or however one would like to transliterate this), is only rendered three times as "repent" being usually rendered as "turn" (or "return" or "turn again") and in fact, the ASV, RV, and YLT render in this manner in even these three places.

    I believe you can only find one individual in the OT who is ever said to repent, and that is Job. (Job 42:6)

    Regardless of how many sermons you may have heard about David, or any other OT saint having "repented" (And I can assure you, I have heard my share!), the Bible simply does not say this.

    But why let the Bible's own words get in the way of a good sermon, I guess. :rolleyes:

    You can find this said about the entire city of Ninevah, and also where Israel both did and did not repent, as a nation, and perhaps some other collective groups, but not about any other human individual.

    However, God is spoken of as either repenting or not repenting 30 times, I believe.

    The usual word rendered as "repent" is "nacham" I also believe you will find.

    Ed
     
    #9 EdSutton, Apr 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2009
  10. stilllearning

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    I had said.....
    “That God does more repenting(changing His mind), than anyone else in the Old Testament:
    And here they are........

    Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

    Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

    Exodus 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

    Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

    Deuteronomy 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

    Judges 2:18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.

    1 Samuel 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

    1 Samuel 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

    2 Samuel 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

    1 Chronicles 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

    Psalms 90:13 Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants.

    Psalms 106:45 And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies.

    Psalms 135:14 For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning his servants.

    Jeremiah 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

    Jeremiah 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

    Jeremiah 20:16 And let that man be as the cities which the LORD overthrew, and repented not: and let him hear the cry in the morning, and the shouting at noontide;

    Jeremiah 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.

    Jeremiah 26:13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

    Jeremiah 26:19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all to death? did he not fear the LORD, and besought the LORD, and the LORD repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them? Thus might we procure great evil against our souls.

    Jeremiah 42:10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.

    Joel 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

    Amos 7:3 The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD.

    Amos 7:6 The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.

    Jonah 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

    Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

    Jonah 4:2 And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.

    Zechariah 8:14 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; As I thought to punish you, when your fathers provoked me to wrath, saith the LORD of hosts, and I repented not:
     
  11. Pastor Larry

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    The word shub is used 1059 times, and most of them are not of God. The word "nacham" (I knew there was another word for the concept that I could not recall) is used 110 times. Most of those are not of God. That's the point.

    Here is a quote from the TWOT entry on nacham: "The KJV translates the Niphal of nµm "repent" thirty-eight times. The majority of these instances refer to God's repentance, not man's. The word most frequently employed to indicate man's repentance is shûb (q, v.), meaning "to turn" (from sin to God)."

    By searching only for nacham, you miss a great amount of references to the idea of repentance. By searching only for "repent," you also miss it. By failing to search for the theological idea (much harder since it requires more than a concordance).

    As you should know, concepts (such as repentance) are often commmunicated by different words (which is why concordance searches are not usually good ways to study the bible), and they have a broader use than we typically give them in these kinds of conversations.

    So it is your contention that Psalm 51 is not a psalm of repentance?
     
  12. Pastor Larry

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    I know that's what you said. The point is that it is inaccurate. The OT words for the idea have more than 1000 other uses than you have listed here, and most of them are not used of God.

    Your methodology is flawed and it led you to a inadequate conclusion.
     
  13. stilllearning

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    Thanks Larry, for the heads up.
     
  14. EdSutton

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    [Sigh!]

    No, my contention is that "turn" and "repent" (or "relent"- as the NKJV renders for "nacham", where this relates to God) are not the same thing.

    I fully believe that we have allowed the concept of 'penance' to 'theologically invade' the Biblical ideas of 'nacham' and 'metanoeO' and also 'metamellomai' in our attempt to seek some sort of 'public contrition' and sorrow for one before one can be saved, or as some sign that one has "really and truly believed" whatever that amalgamation is really supposed to signify.

    I simply do not see where Scripture ever demanded anyone to "be sorry for sin" or "turn from sin" before one could be saved. God demanded the atonement, not some level of sorrow. (Exactly how 'sorry' does one have to be before one has crossed that threshold, anyway?) And considering that 'sin' is not something external, but something that is 'inside', so to speak, how could one even turn from such, in the first place?

    Salvation is a free gift of God via the blood, based on believing/faith in Him, based on the once and for all time finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ, on Mt. Moriah, and not on our efforts, regardless of how well intentioned. God called these 'filthy rags' (KJV) I believe. (Rom. 4:1-8; Jn. 3:8-18; Eph. 2:8-9; Isa. 64:6; etc.)

    In the sense of "turn from sin" or "sorrow for sin", I find this to refer to our fellowship, as believers, as we confess our sins, just as David did in Ps.51. But David was every bit as saved prior to Ps. 51, than he was following to Ps. 51. But he did get back into fellowship with God, at that time.


    Godly' sorrow may well lead one to repentance (II Cor. 7:7-11, esp. v. 10), but it is not repentance, by definition. The same is true with the idea of 'repent' and 'turn' where one may repent and turn (Ex. 32:12; Jer. 4:28; 31:19; Jon. 3:9; Ac. 26:20), but they are not identical.

    And the repentance (change of mind- metanoia) 'necessary' for salvation (and there certainly is such) is "repentance from dead works" and "repentance toward God" (Heb. 6:1; Ac. 20:21), is the 'flip-side' as it were, of faith, and is simply not said to be 'directed' 'toward' or 'from' sin(s).

    BTW, the opening "[Sigh!]" in this post is the same general idea of repent in the OT sense of 'nacham' as to be eased, as in a sigh.

    Ed
     
    #14 EdSutton, Apr 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2009
  15. franklinmonroe

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    The Hebrew word shuwb (Strong's #7725) has a fairly broad range of meaning but essentially has the idea of 'turning back' or 'returning'. In the KJV it can be found behind at least 15 different English renderings (but much more than half of the ocurrences it is "return"/"return + again" & "turn"/"turn + back"). This is predominately physical and directional.

    The Hebrew word nacham (Strong's #5162) has a bit narrower range of basic concepts of either 'to be comforted' (as in consoled), or 'to be sorry' (as in regret). It is rendered as "comfort"/"comforter"/"ease" about 67 times in the KJV while as "repent" maybe just 41 times. This is rather psychological and emotional.
    Despite that the English word "repent" is the same in both Testaments, the Greek word is really quite different than the Hebrew words.

    In the NT "repent" is the Greek word metanoeo (Strong's #3340) which does mean 'a change of mind' in its shortest definition. But it is a specific, that is, a long-term change of mind for the good. BTW, meta- means 'after' and -noeo means 'to think'. In the KJV "repentance" is the related Greek word metanoia (Strong's #3341). However, a more full and expanded definition includes the concept of determining to improve one's moral or ethical lifestyle while having an abhorence for past misconduct. Thayer's says in part that "it embraces both a recognition of sin and sorrow for it and hearty amendment". The Greek word seems to have perceived failings (sin) as the object or cause for the change of mind embedded within it. This is both intellectual & spiritual.

    There is one other word in the NT translated as "repent" in the KJV. That Greek word is metamelomai (Strong's #3338) which only occurs 6 times (metanoeo & metanoia about 58 occurrences).

    Unfortunately, some baggage comes with the etymology of our English word "repent" which sprang from Anglo-French word repentir, which is from the Medieval Latin word repoenitēre (Latin re- + Late Latin poenitēre meaning 'to feel regret').
     
    #15 franklinmonroe, Apr 17, 2009
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  16. Pastor Larry

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    Not precisely, but they can be used of the same thing, as the lexicons point out.

    I am not convinced of that, though perhaps we are talking about different things.

    "Repent or you shall all likewise perish" seems clear enough for me. I think the case for repentance and turning from sin for salvation is pretty explicit in Scripture.

    If a person is not sorrowful for sin, do they really understand sin? There is a sorrow that leads to repentance. Obviously the BVT forum is not the place to hash this out.

    I don't think that is relevant here. I agree. But repentance is a part of faith (Acts 11:17-18).

    Fellowship with God, in teh Bible, is salvation. That's the point of 1 John. Obviously, again that is a broader topic, but some IMO in an effort to protect the Bible have created some categories that don't seme to exist biblically.


    What is it from? What are dead works? Are they not sin?
     
  17. stilllearning

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    I have been around and around with some Calvinists, who do not believe that a born again Christian is ever capable of repentance.

    They would try to convince me, that 1John 1:9, has nothing to do with repentance.
    --------------------------------------------------
    I have had it drilled into me by them, that the definition of the Greek word for repentance, simply means “to change your mind”.....
    “metanoeo” (to change one’s mind)

    Therefore I have changed the terminology that I use, when talking about “turning from sin”.
    I used to say, that there were “two kinds of repentance”:
    (1) Repentance with the heart: (Changing our mind about sin)
    (2) Repentance with the hands: (Turning from sin)
    --------------------------------------------------
    But now, I call it, “the result of repentance”:
    (If we truly repent with our heart) (Than that will result in an action.)

    Like when God repented that He had made man:
    Resulted in the flood. etc.
     

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