Acts 8:18

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by LisaMC, Jan 7, 2003.

  1. LisaMC

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    Hello everyone. Guess you already know I'm new here. On most MBs I go by racer, so you guys can call me racer or just Lisa. Anyhow, recently in my studies on the RC concept of Pope. I came across this passage:

    Act 8:17 Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

    Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

    Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

    Act 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

    Act 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

    Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

    So, do you think that the Holy Spirit REALLY guided the immoral and corrupt popes who freely bought and sold the "throne" of the RCC? [​IMG]

    [ January 07, 2003, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: LisaMC ]
     
  2. Lone Wolf

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    Are you a student or just doing your own research for your own benefit? Just curious.
     
  3. trying2understand

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    How about giving a specific example of what you mean by "bought and sold the throne"?
     
  4. LisaMC

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    Well, one example would be Benedict IX:

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02429a.htm

    Pope Benedict IX
    The nephew of his two immediate predecessors, Benedict IX was a man of very different character to either of them. He was a disgrace to the Chair of Peter. Regarding it as a sort of heirloom, his father Alberic placed him upon it when a mere youth, not, however, apparently of only twelve years of age (according to Raoul Glaber, Hist., IV, 5, n. 17. Cf. V, 5, n. 26), but of about twenty (October, 1032). Of his pontifical acts little is known, except that he held two or three synods in Rome and granted a number of privileges to various churches and monasteries. He insisted that Bretislav, Duke of Bohemia, should found a monastery, for having carried off the body of St. Adalbert from Poland. In 1037 he went north to meet the Emperor Conrad and excommunicated Heribert, Archbishop of Milan, who was at emnity with him (Ann. Hildesheimenses, 1038). Taking advantage of the dissolute life he was leading, one of the factions in the city drove him from it (1044) amid the greatest disorder, and elected an antipope (Sylvester III) in the person of John, Bishop of Sabina (1045 -Ann. Romani, init. Victor, Dialogi, III, init.). Benedict, however, succeeded in expelling Sylvester the same year; but, as some say, that he might marry, he resigned his office into the hands of the Archpriest John Gratian for a large sum.
     
  5. LisaMC

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    I started researching Catholicism about two years ago, when it became apparent that my daughter would be marrying her Catholic boyfriend. They are getting married this May. [​IMG]
     
  6. Lone Wolf

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    Personally, I'm not a big fan of Catholicism. The big turnoff for me is their history of persecution of those who do not believe as they do. Also, they teach and perpetuate false doctorine.
     
  7. trying2understand

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    [ January 07, 2003, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]
     
  8. trying2understand

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    I don't think that John Gratian was ever recognized as Pope by the Church.

    BTW, in attempting to sell his office, Benedict may have been acting sinfully, but he was not acting within the capacity of the office in doing so.
     
  9. Bro. Curtis

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    Was he Pope or not, at the time in question ?
     
  10. dumbox1

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    Trying,

    No, actually, after Benedict IX resigned, John Gratian was validly elected pope. He took the name Gregory VI (not to be confused with the antipope of the same name).

    (He was a big improvement over Benedict, too).

    Since Lisa quoted the Cath. Encyclopedia article on Benedict IX, it's interesting to see the "rest of the story" in the article on Gregory VI:

    "In 1045 the youthful libertine Benedict IX occupied the chair of Peter. Anxious, in order so it is said, that he might marry, to vacate a position into which, though wholly unfit, he had been thrust by his family, he consulted his godfather, John Gratian, the Archpriest of St. John 'ad portam Latinam,' a man of great reputation for uprightness of character, as to whether he could resign the supreme pontificate. When he was convinced that he might do so, he offered to give up the papacy into the hands of his godfather for a large sum of money. Desirous of ridding the See of Rome on such an unworthy pontiff, John Gratian in all good faith and simplicity paid him the money and was recognized as pope in his stead."

    The full article on Gregory VI is at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06791a.htm

    More to the point, Lisa, I hope that in your study of the "RC concept of Pope" you've learned that we Catholics are well aware that each and every Pope was a sinner. (And, of course, we don't believe that they're guided by the Holy Spirit in their sins!)

    I bring this up just because some non-Catholics seem to confuse the concept of "impeccability" with the limited Catholic belief in "infallibility." But if you're already clear on that distinction, great!

    If I can be of any help in your research, let me know.

    Take care,

    Mark H.
     
  11. GraceSaves

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    In my Oxford Dictionary of Popes, it states that the whole matter today is still obscure as to what really happens, and even mentions that there is some evidence that an election did occur. It does account for the above account (sorry for repetition), but does allow for other methods, "probably because it was deliberately kept in the dark at the time."

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  12. LisaMC

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    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02429a.htm
    Continuation of the previously posted exerpt:

    . . . John was then elected pope and became Gregory VI (May, 1045). Repenting of his bargain, Benedict endeavoured to depose Gregory. This resulted in the intervention of King Henry III. Benedict, Sylvester, and Gregory were deposed at the Council of Sutri (1046) and a German bishop (Suidger) became Pope Clement II.

    I know, even Satan can serve as Pope and still infallibly lead the RCC. :rolleyes: At least that's what other RCs have told me. And, I understood the concept until I ran across Acts 8:18. Peter would not let Simeon "buy" gifts of the Holy Spirit, telling him that he was not of God. Since, it is the RCCs claim that the Pope is directly lead by the Holy Spirit, which is a gift, it would stand to reason that any Pope who purchased the chair and recognized by the RCC as such, would have been going against Scriptural teachings.

    There are more than one pope who bought and sold the "chair." In fact, Benedict IX's father purchased the chair for his son.
     
  13. dumbox1

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    Grant,

    I do agree that there appears to have been an election. In fact, in the article on Benedict IX that Lisa quoted, the very next sentence (after the part she quoted) says "John was then elected pope and became Gregory VI."

    That said, I guess you might raise a technical question regarding whether Benedict IX was guilty of simony (i.e., the sale of ecclesial office) per se. Arguably, he took money in exchange for resigning, and didn't have control over who his successor would be.

    But I'm not sure that really matters. If Lisa's overall point was that "Pope So-and-So was guilty of simony, specifically, beyond a reasonable doubt," that would be one thing. But I think her primary focus is on sinfulness in general -- and that, no one disputes.

    (Lisa, if I'm misreading your focus, sorry!)

    Mark H.

    Edited to add the following:

    P.S. - Lisa, I wrote this before seeing your post that's immediately above this one. We must've been typing simultaneously?

    [ January 07, 2003, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Mark H. ]
     
  14. LisaMC

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    Mark, yes this is a subject that I have been over and over with other Catholics. And, I do realize the distinction made between impeccability and infallibility. Thanks for the offer to help. I learn something new on each MB I visit. :D
     
  15. LisaMC

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    Mark,

    Evidently we were typing at the same time. Three posts were added before I was able to post the most recent. Happens fast sometimes doesn't it.
     
  16. dumbox1

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    Actually, I would say that the RCC's "claim" is that the Pope is protected from teaching error by the Holy Spirit in certain limited circumstances.

    Mark H.
     
  17. GraceSaves

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    To someone who knows more about Papal history than I:

    Can it be assumed that given his short time in office (May 1045-early 1046), that he did little in official capacity as Pope, and as such, did not define or declare anything that would fall under being infallible?

    One could just as easily claim that because of the possible illicit means of gaining this office, that he was protected from doing anything at all.

    Just a thought.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  18. trying2understand

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    Just curious, how selective are you being as to what you are researching?

    Do you only look into areas that you think will make the Church look bad, or are you interested in all of the Church?

    Have you spent any time researching the Eucharist for instance?
     
  19. LisaMC

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    Grace, that is a thought. But, then what happens to the supposed "unbroken" chain of succession?
     
  20. LisaMC

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    Mostly, I've read the Early Fathers. I use the New Advent site, The CCEL.org site, and I've read over the Catechism. Also, I've read William Webster and other non-RC sources. I've read some stuff that is probably no more than bashing, but I recognize it for what it is and dismiss it. I try to stick to information which provides sources, because I do check the sources.

    I read all types of info on the RCC.

    Yes, I have. ;)
     

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