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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 24, 2012.
Did Christ ACTUALLY atone for our sins at Calvary of did he make atonement possible at Calvary?
Since an atonement is a "reparation for a wrong or injury", it was actual.
Heb. 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Prior to the cross it was applied to the elect based upon the promise of Christ's coming and faith in Him. After the cross it is being applied to the elect.
The payment is "FINISHED" but the application is not.
Christ actually atoned for the sins of God's Elect, but thats it..
Died so that potentially ALL could be saved, but ONLY those who god chose to place in Chrsit by effectually apply that Grace towards them would get saved!
Whosoever comes to christ will be saved, but those who chooe to do are ONLY those whom God elected to receive Chrsit actually will!
If your christ died to potentially save, then you and I serve Two Different Christ's !
The Christ I serve died to save His People from their sins Matt 1:21 and He did, and rests satisfied in that.
Then you are saying that these can be saved by what they do, in this case coming. That is works.
read entire context of the quote!
I stated that Jesus death would be actual payment to God on behalf of ONLY those who have been elected out beforehand by the Will of God to save them!
they were saved becaused God enabled them to receive the grace/faith/repence needed to have them receive Christ, and ALL he bestowed such on would be saved!3
God goes not "general Grace" all, he 'specifically graces" those elected By him to get saved by Cross of Christ!
His death wa the propiation of ALL, that Its worth was and is enough to save ALL, but that ONLY those whom in an elective sense by God having that Grace effectually applied to them will be saved!
saved by will of God, NOT will of man!
I did already, you made a difference between some God chose to save, and those who could still be saved besides God's election, if they come to Christ. You presented Two different Groups.
So again, you are saying that the whosevers can get saved if they just come. So that means their coming gets them saved, that is works salvation..
the Death of jesus was "enough" in value that indeed TAHT act could have paid for ALL mankind to have gotten saved, BUT it will avasil and benfit ONLY those whom god has chosen to save in christ, there are NONE saved apart from those elected and chosen beforehand by god to be enabled by him to get saved!
irresistable grace thing, you know?
Quite a discussion between the lone 4 pointer and the 5 pointers here, Eh?
We come to Christ through faith. Faith is NEVER a work.
Your model would seem to have the Israelites slaughtering the lamb as sufficient without the application on the door posts for the death angel to pass over them.
If Christ has not been raised, then our faith is worthless.
I don’t know that you can look at atonement apart from the resurrection and faith. But if you are, I suppose that atonement apart from the rest does not provide actual atonement.
I think that hypothetically dividing Christ’s work, and then evaluating it, causes more division than it answers questions.
I think you are exactly right; what an excellent post!
That's one reason I believe in the Christus Victor view of the atonement. And the Eastern orthodox Church has a more wholistic view of the life and work of Jesus. They emphasize the Incarnation and Resurrection as much as the Atonement, and the Resurrection even more. Protestants seem fixated on the Atonement and , as you say, dividing Christs work and then evaluating it apart from the whole. There is a lot we could learn from Eastern Christianity.
to me, the Atonement was a "process" in that though Jesus fully paid for mysins by His death...
Until the resurrection, still was not "proved' that His atonement work met the approval of God!
Did He not say it Himself while still on the cross? He said: "It is finished", Absolutely finished. In what sense? It is finished in the sense that not only all the sins committed in the past were dealt with there, but all the sins that could ever be committed were also dealt with with there. It is one sacrifice, once & forever. He would never come back to the cross again. All the sins were dealt with there finally and completely, everything. Nothing was left undone.... "it is finished".
Nice....then you could pray to icons
Not sure how you arrive at that thought.
Thank you for your comments. My concern is that many seem to view Christ’s death in and of itself as completing our redemption. But apart from the resurrection, our faith is worthless and we are still in our sins.
Christus Victor is the classic view. I do not think that the Ransom theory, of itself, is completely adequate. Often it leads to the conclusion that Christ paid a debt to Satan for our sins. But it does highlight the victory of Christ over sin and death.