ad hominem argument

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jarthur001, Jun 27, 2006.

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  1. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    I have seen this many times in the last few months from posters in a debate when all other arguments have been debunked. In most cases, in the debate world, those that fall into ad hominem are viewed as having lost the real debate and trying to get as many hits in as they can before being closed down by the other side. Or as a means that while they are losing the real debate, by using ad hominem argument, they may change the subject of the debate in order to hide weak areas in their argument there by dodge the subject and place focus on areas that they feel they have the upper hand.

    Where as this is a given tool and strong tool in the debate arena to use to win debates at all cost, what does it say about us as believers when it comes to doctrine? Are we to “win” at all cost? Is our focus even to be toward winning? When it comes to doctrine, are we to win the game, or look for the truth?

    We should all know the source. It is our DUTY to know what was said by the man, in the context of the subject. As believers, what is our final source? What context must we make SURE we understand to be right? If it is said by a man that red is red and no matter who it was that said red is red, if we find in our final source red is green and we understand this to be true in full context of our source, the one that said red is red is wrong. Yet on the other hand if we see from our final source that indeed just as the one that claimed red to be red, it is in fact red, and we understand this to be true in full context, it is our DUTY to agree and not attack the man that said this, for if we do attack the man, we are really attacking our final source, which did agree with the man.

    Should we play the ad hominem card in doctrine? Should not our final source be Gods Word, no matter who said it? What do you think?
     
  2. Dale-c

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    I think that is part of what this verse is talking about.
    Human debate rather than a genuine desire for truth, a desire for victory.
     
  3. Jarthur001

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    WOW! A very powerful verse as to why we could not. I must agree with you Dale.

    Now even more, look at the class of words which we find this. It is listed right after the word "murder". ouch!! In this view, it is no small thing to debate and bring strife only to prove our point at all cost. In Gods eyes, this is no better then murder. But then again, all sin is like that, is it not? We place value on sins, thinking one is not as bad as the other. Yet as we see in James if you sin, you are guilty of breaking the whole Law in Gods eyes.

    This would mean as sinners we are all in the same boat and there is only one thing that would help us. That being the blood of Christ. Ted Bundy killed many young ladies. Some of those ladies never heard the gospel before Ted killed them. Ted in his last year before he was put to death claimed Christ as Lord. I have no idea if he meant it or not. It is not for me to say. But I know this, If Ted did ask Christ into his heart, he is in heaven today. Ted was a evil man. Ted was on his way to hell. Yet I was on my way to hell before I was saved as well. I have killed no one. But I was in the same boat as Ted..lost. As I said before, Ted may have killed ladies that never heard the gospel. Yet Ted is in heaven if he was turly saved. Is that fair? Is it fair that these ladies never heard the gospel because Ted killed them, and now he is saved and they maybe in hell? No..to us it may not be fair...but..that is grace. Grace is not what we do, but what Christ has done. Christ can save me, you or Ted.

    The truth is sometimes beyond our logic. When looking for truth, it is not that we must understand it, but just believe it. To deny the truth and run from it, only plays us as the fool.
     
  4. npetreley

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    No, you're wrong about ad hominem arguments because you're a jerk.

    Just kidding. I agree 100%.

    To be fair, people on these boards resort to many more logical fallacies than ad hominem arguments in order to "win" the debates. People just don't like to be wrong about what they believe, and they will go to some of the most absurd lengths to avoid admitting they're wrong.

    I find it interesting that the debate about calvinism vs. free-will strongly resembles the debate about creation vs. evolution. People will make up facts out of thin air to support their views because they can't bear to part with their final conclusion no matter how clearly the data refutes their position. The fossil record doesn't support gradualism? Okay, then make up a theory called punctuated equilibrium. God forbid (oh, sorry, it's not permissible to factor God into science) that one might actually look at the data and realize it simply doesn't support your assumption that evolution is true.
     
  5. Brother Bob

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    I really think that you should include yourselves in this debate. You have used every tatic known to try and get your point across. You do not even consider a Scripture when it goes against Calvinism but come up with some explanation of that Scripture that makes no sense at all. Now, I am not leaving myself out of this either, I will carry my weight, but don't talk like you are free what you are accusing others of doing. I gave you several Scriptures to which you would give no answer and if you did you ran to the Greek and found a definition that suited your case when we know that each word has different difinitions in the Greek language. So at least be willing to include yourselves in this "wanting to win" post of yours.

    Luke, chapter 11

    "46": And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.
     
    #5 Brother Bob, Jun 27, 2006
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  6. Timtoolman

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    Well said brother Bob. ***Personal insult deleted***

    :laugh: :smilewinkgrin:
     
    #6 Timtoolman, Jun 27, 2006
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  7. npetreley

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    This is so ironic it's downright hilarious. I was extremely careful to phrase my post so as not to point to either calvinists or free-willers as being solely guilty of using logical fallacies. The only people I accused directly were evolutionists.

    In response, you've not only falsely accused me of being biased in my statement, but your argument is itself an ad hominem attack! I purposely didn't want to point the finger only at free-willers for being the dominant side for doing things like this, but if I had wanted to do that, you certainly saved me the trouble.
     
    #7 npetreley, Jun 27, 2006
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  8. Dale-c

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    This post is too funny :)
     
  9. 2BHizown

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    This can be done without sarcasm, without hostility. We can still object to other views and substantiate our claims with God's word.
    We have a duty to fight for God's truth, remembering the words spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ! How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
    Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
    And of some have compassion, making a difference:
    And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotten by the flesh.
    Jude 17-23
     
  10. 2BHizown

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    And so, it really is true, that christians kill their wounded, or those who disagree with them! They can show no love for any who differ?
     
  11. Brother Bob

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    I go to the gymn and workout every morning with those of the predestinated belief. We consider each other brothers and sisters and truly love one another. We have never had the Animosity I have come to know since being on BB. I did not know that it existed until the Calvinist learned I was not a Calvinist and then every thread I went too, here they come in bunches to defend one another and try to corral a non-calvinist. We quickly learned how to defend ourselve in order to stay alive in the debates. If we had of been shown love and compassion we would of responded in kind but we were not. I am not speaking about all the Calvinist for some I have become very fond of and respect the way they debate and how they treat me. Others speak with such venom that it is hard to not respond. I try but then one of the Calvinist says something like "come down off your high horse". They have a way of bringing out the worst in people and I think it is because they must fear their doctrine will not stand the test of time. To equate John Calvin with the Word (Jesus Christ) I think is a dangereous thing to do and I would not be guilty of it for nothing on this earth. So, continue on your unfriendly ways and the rest of us will try to not let you destroy us.
     
  12. Dale-c

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    I have never come into contact with any that did this about Calvin but I am sure they are out there.

    I have seen people that did the same to others though.

    Bill Gothard comes to mind. Many look to his manuals before they look to the Bible.
    Very sad.

    Again, I am sure some do this with Calvin, but I have never met any,
     
  13. Jarthur001

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    Oh yeah?? well let me tell you something my you big......aaaaw ...well...never mind. :)
     
  14. Jarthur001

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    Hello Bob,



    This is only true in that I should include myself in any wrong tatic used. I am not above doing wrong. I sin nearly daily...mainly with my pride. Yet please understand, all tatics are not wrong. If we use the Bible and not attack the preacher, where would we go wrong?

    You are however wrong to say i consider no Scripture when it goes against Calvinism. In no way can you know the battle that I have come though in my walk with the Lord. I took on parts of Calvinisim from the beginning not even knowing that there was a "doctrine of grace". I saw election on my own. How? it's in the Bible. Its plain as day..to me it is. It took a few years before I said I agree with all 5 points.

    You are wrong for you have posted on treads that I have started saying..."this is a hard verse for a Calvinist"...and another which said something like..."How does a Calvinist handly this verse?". And there have been others you have not seen. To you it makes no sense. To me I know in my heart that it is the Gospel. Bob, I would serve me no reason to believe a lie and tell others it was the truth, if deep inside I felt it was wrong. I would be a fool to do such a thing. I do not hold to Calvinism, for it makes no sense. I hold to it, for it is the Gospel pure and simple.


    Bob, I will be glad to address any verse you have. You have to understand at times all of us can have 10 debates going on at one time. Its hard to address each post. It is for me, because i type slow. :) Last night It seems like I could not type a full post when I had 3-4 more new post addressed to me.



    In Christ..James
     
  15. Jarthur001

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    humm. Not the best tread to post a post like this. :)

    oh well..
     
  16. Brother Bob

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    What do you think this thread is about started by you. Then you need to repent again James.


    If you didn't stand for what you believe to be the truth I would not think much of you.
    BTW, they were hard verses for the Calvinist if that is what I said. I have know several that were hard for Calvinist to answer such as Peter 2:2 of which you all waited until Rippon came on and went all the way to Duet and come up with some answer that didn't even fit no where near Peter 2:2. I haven't heard you answer to this day.


     
  17. Jarthur001

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    Hello Bob,


    It is funny that you bring this up. I had no idea, never in my life, did I think that any one had a problem with grace. Sure, I knew about the debate and I have been part of it for years. But before most held to parts of the doctrine of grace yet not all. Things have really changed. Now..grace is attacked on all fronts. I took 4 months off from posting and when I came back, 2-3 posters that were middle of the road are now fully haters of grace. Its sad to me. But, we all must believe in our heart.

    Its never right for anyone to take this debate to far. One of the reasons I started this tread is a way to get something out in the open. Those that hold to free will can give their own list of ways which they are wrongly talked about, but I would like to give a list of things thrown at those that hold to the doctrine of grace with no reason or meaning and shows no understanding of the facts.

    Calvinist follow a man. How many times have I heard this? In all my days here on earth I have yet to meet one man or lady that worshipped John Calvin. Now there may be some that do, but this is all you here from the other side. why? Its because of the name Calvinism. Non-Calvinism link the man to the doctrine. I guess its fair in a sense, yet no one worships John.

    The term, "Calvinism," is not the name by which we Calvinists prefer to have their faith called; nor do we prefer to call ourselves "Calvinists." I did not call myself a Calvinist at 1st. Others labled me this. Calvin was the name of a man, a great servant of God, John Calvin. He was one of the Reformers by whom the Holy Spirit reformed the Church in the 16th century. To call ourselves "Calvinists" and our faith "Calvinism" leaves the impression that we follow a man and that these beliefs are the invention of a man. In fact, ....these terms originally were terms of derision used by our enemies, as were also the names, "Christian," and "Protestant." Therefore, from the very beginiing, Calvinists called themselves "Reformed,". They deliberately distinguished themselves from the other great branch of the Protestant Reformation, the Lutheran Church, which did call itself by the name of a man (contrary to the wishes of Luther himself).

    Nevertheless, "Calvinism" and "Calvinist" are useful terms, today. They are widely known, even though that be, in part, through the attack upon, and reproach of, Calvinism by its enemies. Also,..... the name, "Calvinist," is embraced by persons and churches who are not Reformed, but who confess those tenets of Calvinism which they call "the doctrines of grace." "Calvinism" has come to stand for certain doctrines, a certain system of truth. We have no objection to calling these doctrines "Calvinism" as long as two things are clearly understood.

    Please let it be clear. It must be understood that not the man, John Calvin, but Holy Scripture is the source of them.

    2nd..., it must be understood that we who embrace these truths are not disciples of a man, Calvin, but are concerned exclusively to follow God's eternal Son in our flesh, Jesus Christ, exactly by confessing these doctrines

    **********
    THEREFORE......when said

    John Calvin killed someone...and so?
    John Calvin baptised babies....our point?
    John Calvin kicked the cat.....and the dog too..so what???

    IT DOES NOT MATTER!!!

    This is not about John Calvin. Most that hold to the doctines of grace have not even read Calvin 1st hand. But, they have read the Bible. If you want to talk about doctrine, lets talk about doctrine...not about a old sinner just as you and I.

    I call myself a Calvinist now..for it is much easier. And when I say Calvinist it is meant..doctrines of grace.



    In Christ..James
     
  18. Jarthur001

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    I said....
    Let me be clear...it was I..not you that started the tread. I am a Calvinist. It was YOU that claimed I had no problem with any verse. It was YOU that said I twist. I posted this as to remind you that I for one have been open.
     
    #18 Jarthur001, Jun 27, 2006
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  19. Jarthur001

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    Peter 2:2...

    I'll start a tread on this tomorrow. :)
     
  20. webdog

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    Every time I hear ad hominem, I think of that white corn stuff in a can my mom used to make me eat... :laugh:
     
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