Adam Clarke

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Sep 18, 2012.

  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Adam Clarke Commentary on Matthew 28:1, 'opse'


    Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

    Quote<“In the end of the Sabbath - Οψε δε σαββατων. After the end of the week: this is the translation given by several eminent critics; and in this way the word οψε is used by the most eminent Greek writers. Thucydides, lib. iv. chap. 93, της ημερας οψε ην - the day was ended. Plutarch, οψε των βασιλεως χρονων - after the times of the king. Philostratus οψε των Τροικων - after the Trojan war. See Rosenmuller. In general the Jews divided their natural day, which consisted of twenty-four hours, into day and night. Their artificial day began at the rising and ended at the setting of the sun; all the rest of the time, from the setting to the rising of the sun, they termed night: hence the same word, in Hebrew, signifies both evening and night. Genesis 1:5; Mark 6:47. Matthew has employed the word in this extensive sense here, pointing out the latter part of the Jewish night, that which immediately preceded the rising of the sun, and not that first part which we call the evening. The transaction mentioned here evidently took place early on the morning of the third day after our Lord's crucifixion; what is called our Sunday morning, or first day of the next week.
    Came - to see the sepulchre - That is, they set out at this time in order to visit the tomb of our Lord, and also to weep there, John 11:31, and to embalm the body of our Lord, Luke 24:1. St. Matthew omits Mary Salome, mentioned by Mark; and Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, mentioned by Luke. The other Mary was the wife of Cleopas, and mother of James and Joses, mentioned before, Matthew 27:56. Were not Mary and Salome two distinct persons?”>QEnds

    Copied from http://www.godvine.com/bible/Matthew/28-1
     
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Re: Clarke,
    “in this way […After the end of …] the word οψε is used by the most eminent Greek writers.”
    “… Thucydides, lib. iv. chap. 93, της ημερας οψε ην - the day was ended. …”

    Is Matthew speaking of, “After the end of …” the Sabbath, not considering for now, “After the end of the _week_”? Is Matthew speaking of, “After the end of …” the Sabbath when the Sabbath “… day was ended”?
    Or, does the KJV tell what Matthew really says, “In the end of the Sabbath”?

    In other words, is Adam Clarke and “the most eminent Greek writers”, or, is Matthew, lying, because the times the two parties say were ongoing while the events “explained to the women” in Matthew 28:1-4 had taken place, contradict, negate, and exclude one another completely?

    Clarke refers to one of “the most eminent Greek writers” specifically, Thycydides, and what he wrote in the fifth century BEFORE, Christ.
    I have always maintained such use of the word ‘opse’ as Clarke claims, has NEVER appeared in “Greek writers”— not BEFORE and not AFTER Christ— not until Philostratus that false Jesus of the third century, even. (See note ‘Philostratus’.)

    Clarke has been the only of the most eminent Christian scholars I have yet seen, who claims ‘opse’ had been used BEFORE Christ with the meaning of “after”. Yet Adam Clarke is greatly respected across the spectrum of Christian thinking for his ‘Commentary on the Bible’, as is obvious from the quoted website. So I think Clarke in the instance of his commentary on Matthew 28:1 and the meaning of ‘opse’, deserves to be investigated a bit closer.
     
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Let us look at some examples from Clarke’s “most eminent Greek writer”, Thycydides —examples like in “Thucydides lib. iv. chap. 93”— for the meaning of the Adverb, ‘opse’.

    Κεφ. Ι 23, ήττα των Αθηναίων … which, I think, means, Book 1 of Thucydides’ ‘History of the Pelopponesian wars’ and chapter 23?? Allright?
    Ἐπεί δὲ οὐκ ἀντανήγαγεν Λύσανδρος καὶ τῆς ἡμέρας ὀψέ ἦν, ἀπέπλευσαν πάλιν εἰς τοὺς Αἰγός ποταμούς.

    “Epei de ouk antanehgagen Lusandros’, ‘Then when Lusandros no (longer) was engaged in battle’

    ‘kai tehs hehmeras opse ehn’, ‘and at length it was late the day,’

    ‘apepleusan palin eis tous Aigos potamous’, ‘they again set sail to the Aigos river’.

    Walter Bauer ‘Wörterbuch zum Neuen Testament’:
    “òψέ Fast wie ein undeklinatives Substantiv gebraucht (Thucydides 3.108.3 unter anderem ές òψέ …)”—
    ‘Virtually used as indeclinable Noun’. Therefore, ‘es [eis] opse’, will mean, ‘until late’— ‘biss Spät’ … in the day of course!
    Not, “After the end of … the day was ended”.

    In “Thucydides, lib. iv. chap. 93, της ημερας οψε ην”, ‘opse’ is virtually used as an Attributive Adjective; it tells how late the day was, “the day …”, Subject, “was … late”, Predicate.

    In the three referred instances from Thucydides so far, ‘opse’ means BEFORE “the day was” over, and well BEFORE the following day – which for Athenians (Greeks) – would have had begun after sunset.

    In fact, in Matthew 28:1 “the day was” still “Sabbath’s” “In the end OF-THE-Sabbath”, Genitive of Possession, Kind and Quality— it was STILL, “Sabbath’s-TIME” and much over a night of 12 hours still, to “long after the Sabbath very early as morning began to dawn on the First Day of the week” … like Sunday resurrectionists like Adam Clarke love to make Christians believe.
    Even were it true “oψε δε σαββατων” meant “after the end of” the Sabbath / “after the time of” the Sabbath, even, were it true “the word οψε is used in this way”, even, were it true “the word οψε is used in this way by the most eminent Greek writers”, it nevertheless would be “after the end of” the Sabbath Day and ‘after the time of” the Sabbath Day in the dusk of evening after sunset, and not nearly ‘very early as it began to dawn towards the First Day of the week’ the following morning!

    A fourth example …
    Thukydides – 1824 Ι λ Τ 7 … which, I think, means, “Thucydides ‘Wars’ First Book, Part 7,
    στρατον• … ηδη γαρ καὶ της ημερας οψε ην. επεὶ δε προς εμιω' έγγυς του στρατευματος αυτων, ές χωρίον καθίσας όθεν λόφου οντος μεταξύ ...

    I’ll try to translate,
    ‘(To) the soldier: … Because indeed already late-of-day (it) had become, and since my own place is near their guard, he in the meantime (went and) sat in (the) place between, from where (that) hill is.’

    One thing at least is clear: time-of-day!— “LATE IN THE DAY”, ‘της ημερας οψε’— the SAME “day”; not, “after the end of” the day; not, “after … the day was ended”, but BEFORE, and WELL before “the day was ended”, and well before, “after the end of day”.
     
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    So four examples from Thucydides of the fifth century BC, showing Adam Clarke is in error!

    Therefore let us see what the most eminent Greek scholars of our own times 2500 years later than Thucydides, have to say.

    Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon. revised and augmented throughout by. Sir Henry Stuart Jones. with the assistance of. Roderick McKenzie. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1940.
    ὀψέ , Aeol. ὄψι (q. v.), Adv. A. after a long time, at length, ... 3. c. gen., ὀ. τῆς ἡμέρας late in the day, “ἤδη γὰρ τῆς ἡμέρας ὀ. ἦν” Th.4.93, cf. X.HG2.1.23;
    ὀψέ , Aeol. ὄψι (q. v.), Adv.
    A. after a long time, at length, late, ἔκ τε καὶ ὀ. τελεῖ, opp. αὐτίκα, Il.4.161; “ὀ. κακῶς ἔλθοι” Od.9.534, etc.; ὀ. διδάσκεσθαι, μανθάνειν, to be late in learning, learn too late, A.Ag.1425, S. OC1264; “ὀψέ γε φρονεῖς εὖ”E.Or.99; also “ὀ. δή” Il.7.399, etc.; “ὀ. γοῦν” A. l.c.; “ὀ. περ” Pi.N.3.80.
    b. ὀ. ἀφ᾽ οὗ . . it is not long since . . , Th.1.14.
    2. late in the day, at even, Il.21.232, Od.5.272, Th.4.106, etc.; ὀφλεῖν . . ὀ. ὁδοῦ incur a penalty for being out late at night, Pl.Cra.433a (dub.); late in the season, Hes.Op.485;ὀ. ἦν, ὀ. ἐγίγνετο, it was, it was getting, late, X.An.2.2.16,3.4.36; ἡ μάχη ἐτελεύτα ἐς (v.l. ἕως) ὀ. did not end till late,Th.3.108; so “ἐς ὀψέ” Id.8.23; but εἰς ὀ. ψηφίζεσθαιcontinue voting till late in the day, D.57.15.
    3. c. gen., ὀ. τῆς ἡμέρας late in the day, “ἤδη γὰρ τῆς ἡμέρας ὀ.ἦν” Th.4.93, cf. X.HG2.1.23; “τῆς δ᾽ ὥρας ἐγίγνετ᾽ ὀ.”D.21.84; ὀ. τῆς ἡλικίας late in life, Luc. Dem.Enc.14, cf.Am.37.
    4. as Prep. c. gen., ὀ. τούτων after these things, Philostr.VA6.10, cf. 4.18; so perh. ὀ. σαββάτων after the sabbath day, Ev.Matt.28.1.—For the Comp. and Sup. Advbs.v. ὄψιος.

    GE:
    Note point “4. as Prep. c. gen., ὀ. τούτων after these things, Philostr.VA6.10, cf. 4.18; so perh. ὀ. σαββάτων after the sabbath day, Ev.Matt.28.1.”

    The words, “so perhaps” with reference to L&S as quoted, are unwarranted and over-hopeful.

    Followed Walter Bauer, 1958, making “so perhaps”, “UNEIGENTLICHE Präposition”, an ‘UNREAL Preposition’— which is NO Preposition but a figment of the imagination in the case of Matthew 28:1. And, for that matter, a figment of the imagination in the case of Philostratus too, who used ‘opse’ as an Adverb, with the Genitive Case JUST LIKE all the other “prominent Greek writers” who used ‘opse’ as an Adverb with the Genitive Case, though Philostrutus’ use sometimes might suggest the sense of an Ablative Case. (See note below to paragraphs from ‘The Lord’s Day in the Covenant of Grace'.) Remember that Philostratus wrote in the third century AD, that is, 7, 8 hundred years after Thucydides!

    Note that both authorities make this ridiculous observation as a single exception to the epistemology of the term ‘opse’, having been confronted with the contra-traditional literal and idiomatic meaning of it in Matthew 28:1.
     
    #4 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Sep 18, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2012
  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Another borrower ‘authority’ …
    http://archimedes.fas.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/dict?word=o)ye/&lang=&name=lsj&filter=CUTF8
    ες ὀψέ
    Op.485; ὀ. ἦν, ὀ. ἐγίγνετο, it was, it was getting, late , X. An.2.2.16, 3.4.36; ἡ μάχη ἐτελεύτα ἐς (v.l. ἕως) ὀ. did not end till late , Th. 3.108; so ἐς ὀψέ Id. 8.23 ...
    ὀψέ, Aeol. ὄψι (q. v.), Adv. after a long time, at length, late, ἔκ τε καὶ ὀ. τελεῖ, opp. αὐτίκα, Il.4.161; ὀ. κακῶς ἔλθοι Od.9.534, etc.; ὀ. διδάσκεσθαι, μανθάνειν, to be late in learning, learn too late,A.Ag.1425, S. OC1264; ὀψέ γε φρονεῖς εὖ E.Or.99; also ὀ. δή Il.7.399, etc.; ὀ. γοῦν A. l.c.; ὀ. περ Pi.N.3.80.
    b. ὀ. ἀφ' οὗ ..it is not long since .., Th.1.14.
    2. late in the day, at even, Il.21.232, Od.5.272, Th.4.106, etc.; ὀφλεῖν ..ὀ. ὁδοῦ incur a penalty for being out late at night, Pl.Cra.433a (dub.); late in the season, Hes.Op.485; ὀ. ἦν, ὀ. ἐγίγνετο, it was, it was getting, late, X.An.2.2.16, 3.4.36; ἡ μάχη ἐτελεύτα ἐς (v.l. ἕως) ὀ. did not end till late, Th.3.108; so ἐς ὀψέ Id.8.23; but εἰς ὀ. ψηφίζεσθαι continue voting till late in the day, D.57.15.
    3. c. gen., ὀ. τῆς ἡμέρας late in the day, ηδη γαρ της ημερας ὀ. ην Th.4.93, cf. X.HG2.1.23; της δ' ωρας εγεγνετ' ὀ. D.21.84; ὀ. της ηλικιας late in life, Luc. Dem.Enc.14, cf. Am.37.
    4. as Prep. c. gen., ὀ. τουτων after these things, Philostr.VA6.10, cf. 4.18; so perh. ὀ. σαββατων after the sabbath day, Ev. Matt. 28.1.—

    Note, “so perh. ὀ. σαββατων after the sabbath day, Ev. Matt. 28.1”, and compare with L&S above, “4. as Prep. c. en., ὀ. Τούτων after these things, Philostr. VA6.10, cf. 4.18; so perh. ὀ. Σαββάτων after the sabbath day, Ev. Matt. 28.1”.

    Set task for myself:
    Translate “late in the day” from Richard Crawley’s translation of Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War fourth book Chapter XII, into Greek,
    “In this strait the Syracusans and their allies were compelled to fight, late in the day, about the passage of a boat, putting out with rather more than thirty ships against sixteen Athenian and eight Rhegian vessels. Defeated by the Athenians they hastily set off, each for himself, to their own stations at Messina and Rhegium, with the loss of one ship; night coming on before the battle was finished.”
    Assignment answer: ‘οψε ημερας’.
    Was it – ‘opse’ – the next morning after “night coming on”, or, on the same day before “night coming on”?
    The answer is too obvious.
    Too obvious for scholars like Adam Clarke?
    Aparently.
     
  6. DHK

    DHK
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    Are you debating with yourself?
    Or are you just posting for posting's sake?
     
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    GE:

    Well, that's how a debate is started, isn't it, by someone making a statement ...?

     
  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    I asked,

    "Too obvious for scholars like Adam Clarke?"

    The contrariness to Clarke's opinion --- that's what was too apparent for him-- as for now-a-days quasi translators and Christians. Too apparent because SCARED and ashamed of the Gospel.

    Go ahead, stone me!

     
  9. billwald

    billwald
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    No, a debate is started when a statement, usually in the form of a question, is made which makes a point that someone cares about.
     
  10. billwald

    billwald
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    Further, no statement which requires 5 screens of quoted material is worth plowing through. I opened the thread because I was curious about this person. I still don't know the point of the thread and I am not going to read your 5 screens. If you want to tell us in 50 words or less . . . .
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Why should I reply to _you_, Billwald? You say you are not interested. Then you are not interested.

    But were you interested the few screens would be not too much trouble to peruse and in a glance see what it's all about. In a glance! five minutes is all it would require.

    What are you doing on a forum if you are not interested?

    But if NOBODY read or as much as looked at my subjects, I don't care. I do 'debate with myself' you know, like DHK sneeringly remarked. I do not CARE what DHK may think. I know he does not think anything about what I wrote in any case.

    Nevertheless, friends, I, KNOW! I know SOME people read; AND, care! To your dismay; so much the better and enjoyable for me!

    Let me tell you, Don't read! Don't waste my thoughts on yourself; please!

    I do stand with my hat in my hands before BaptistBoard. If it were not for Baptist Board about 25 persons at any given time LESS would read what I have to say. If one person spent 10 minutes on reading any of my posts per month on BB, it would be thousands after all the years I have posted on BB.

    In journalism (I understand) 1 written or phoned in reply on any one news or whatever item of interest represents 10,000 readers / viewers / listeners.

    So it is not for nothing I work to get my posts placed anywhere. And I have always hoped for nothing but CRITICISM. It is criticism that tests, rectifies and purifies not only an article, but _me_. And do I need that! If only for THAT - testing, rectifying, purifying - it's more than enough for me.

    But there are more things I like about writing and publishing on air. One: To VEX the lazy; Two: to SHAME the hypocrite; Three: to SCORN the scholars; Four: to MOCK the proud: Five: to belittle and smash and destroy the LIAR!

    My holy calling is it!

    I will not neglect my duty!


     
    #11 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Sep 25, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2012

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