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Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Sovereign Grace, Aug 24, 2002.
What is your view in regards to the disobedience of Adam in relation to the decrees of God?
None of the above.
God gave Adam a free choice in the garden to eat of the tree or not. Adam chose freely to eat the fruit. God knew what Adam would do and planned from eternity past to offer salvation to mankind and to save those who freely accepted the offer of salvation.
I would state I believe God decreed to permit Adam's fall. I do not like the choice of questions. So I have to say None of the Above also.
I would rephrase swaimj's answer slightly in that God gave Adam a free choice (since neither him nor Eve's wills were in bondage) in the garden to eat of the tree or not. Adam chose freely to eat the fruit. Humanity is now in bondage and free will was replaced by self will to the flesh and Satan. Salvation was no after thought but was already ordained to bring the elect to salvation.
Yes God decreed to permit this to happen (Because He is sovereign) but to say that God purposed that Adam sin or decreed that Adam sinned I think is too strong a statement and would seem to make God the author of sin.
The Waldensian Confession I believe states it well,
VI. That he governs and rules all by his providence, ordaining and appointing whatsoever happens in this world, without being the author or cause of any evil committed by the creatures, so that the guilt thereof neither can nor ought to be in any way imputed unto him.
God decreed to permit Adam to sin but He was not the cause of any evil committed by Adam. This shows what unfallen humanity did with Free will before the will went into bondage to Satan.
[ August 25, 2002, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]
I agree with Kiffin.
Your view summaries the orthodox, Biblical view. If I may ask, did you ever study at what we used to call, Philadelphia College of the Bible?
Do the Calvinists on this thread, besides myself, believe that God decrees things because He sees them happening?
"Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath He not decreed anything, because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions." (1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith)
That is what I believe.
"Although God created man upright and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which had been unto life if kept, and threatened death uponthe breach thereof, yet he did not long abide in this honour; Satan using the subtlety of theserpent to subdue Eve, then by her seducing Adam, who, without any compulsion,did willlfully transgress the law of their creation, and the command givenunto them, in eating the forbidden fruit, which God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel to permit,having purposed to order it to His own glory." (1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith)
I believe God decreed to permit the fall, but I do not believe this was a bare permission where God just turned Adam loose to do whatsoever he pleased. I believe God ordered, restricted, and overruled Adam's sin for His glory.
"Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain." (Psalms 76:10)
However, this is no way means that God is not sovereign, for He is the first cause of all things. And before any brethren would say something about God being the author of sin, read the words of Isaiah, "O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance." (Isaiah 63:17) or "Incline not my heart to any evil thing, to practise wicked works with men that work iniquity: and let me not eat of their dainties." (Psalms 141:4) Surely, these prophets would not being saying such if it were not God's sovereign right to do with us as the great Potter sees fit. It is by His grace we are made to walk in His ways and rejoice therein. Yes, Conditionalists, salvation is by grace both IN TIME and IN ETERNITY! "O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!" (Psalms 119.5)
Ray Berrian asked:
Now it's PBU (Philadelphia Biblical University or Peanut Butter University as some of the kids who attend there call it). No, I graduated from Piedmont Baptist College (known as Piedmont Bible College til a few year ago) about 14 years ago. Currently, I am 9 hours away from earning an M.Div at Calvary Baptist Seminary. Both are excellent schools, but of course I am biased!
I have heard 2 views on the fall of man.
1. Plan A, that all of His created beings were to live in obedience and joy. But because these creatures took advantage of their free will, a percentage of the angels and later the entire human race plunged into sin and its ugly consequences. In response, God initiated Plan B, entering the world in the person of Christ to redeem as many people as He could. According to this view the fall of man in Eden runined God's plan. Faced with the reality of the curse, Christ came to clean up the mess. God didn't much act as react to the devastation that sin left in its wake. Like an artist who finds indelible ink spilled by his rival on the original canvas and creatively includes the blotch in his pisture, so God took the mess that His rebellious creations handed Him and made the best of it. This I believe is wrong.
2. There are compelling reasons to prove that the fall of Lucifer and Adam was Plan A. The schem of history and redemption was always in the divine mind; God created that He might redeem, He redeemed that He might better display His glory. ACTS 15:18 "Know unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world". What is important is that we realize that there was a cross in God's heart long before there was a cross raised upon the mount of Calvary. All things were created for the glory of God.
"For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all thing were created by him and for him"(Col. 1:16). Nothing is left out.
by His Grace
Did Adam know what he was doing?... Yes!... Did he do it of his own free will either because he didn't want Eve to die or was just following her in submission... Yes... He knew what he was doing and carried out his disobedience anyway!... Was God in anyway a partaker of the sin of Adam and Eve?... How many NOs do you need!... Did God decree Adam and Eve to sin?... NO!!!!!!!!... He knew they were going to sin and a provision would be made for that sin that infected him and all his posterity... Seeing the end from the beginning and those things not yet done saying... "MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND AND I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE"... I also agree with none of the above and scripture states nothing less!... Then there is Total Depravity but that is another subject of how far Adam fell!... Brother Glen
See here's the thing
you just stated "God knew they were going to sin"
Why create sin?
I ask that because if God created them knowing that they were going to sin, I could just as forcibly make all the pedophiles of the world - elementary school teachers - and have a horrible gruesome, life planned out, for them and their victims in order to redeem them; just because I know their going to commit crimes - or I could not put the pedophiles knowingly near any children - and thus they find their own victims.
Yes the analogy has its flaws - in that I cant create pedophiles - but God can create sinners.
But He didnt - He created things that were good and very good
God knew there was the possibilty of them sinning and such had a plan since the beginning - but He also knew of the possibilty that man would not sin, and had plans for that accordingly.
Amen, Brother Glen,
I believe you stated it very well in a very balanced Biblical way. I agree with you!
Sularis... Here is one for you to tackle... God created Satan!... There was nothing until God brought it into existence!... Now explain to me with all the attributes of God being all in all he could create an Angel... That would rebel and turn the race of Mankind against God!... My God knew it all... Seeing the end from the beginning!... Why did he allow it?... Explain what the greatest theologians thoughout time have NEVER been able to explain?... That is just the way it is!... "GOD IS GOD!... Brother Glen
[ August 26, 2002, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
The Bible calls Jesus the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8). From what I understand, all of us agree that Calvary was in the mind of God from all eternity. The real question is whether or not God works His decrees around what man, according to His "free will," is inclined to do or if all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing (Dan. 4:35). If God is working all things after the counsel of His own will (Eph. 1:11), how much willing is left to man? Accordingly, if you admit that God is absolutely sovereign according to the Calvinistic definition, God did not "foresee" anything but that which He purposed. I have never heard Predestinarians speak of God in such a way to make His purposes and decrees contingent upon what He saw man doing as if He were looking through a crystal ball. The initial question was the fall in regards to the decrees of God. Again, was God an idle spectator in the most important event in human history? Did He want Adam to fall or not? If yes, my point is proven. If no, it was not the pleasure of God for Him to do so, but the Scriptures tell us that God will do all His pleasure, and He did everything exactly the way He wanted it. "Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." (Ps. 135:6) Has the Lord done all these things and left all to the vagary of chance? The plan of redemption trough His Son Jesus Christ contingent upon the will of man? That, brethren, sounds like Arminianism at best! Does this make God the "author of sin?" No, of course not. In what court can He be tried? Under what law is He bound? Can lowly mortals approach His throne and say, "What doest Thou?" (Dan. 4:35) It was either the pleasure of God to fall or it was not. There is no median. I believe God decreed to permit the fall, but I do not believe this was a bare permission where God just turned Adam loose to do whatever he pleased. God ordered, restricted, and overruled Adam's sin for His glory. "Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain." (Ps. 76:10)
I am only one man's opinion, but I see you having a vary balanced view of theology. I have visited Philadelphia Biblical University; totally different than the downtown center. God's very best to you.
Thanks Ray Berrian for the kind and encouraging words. To God be the glory!
God created Lucifer - knowing the possibity existed of him falling - the possibilty of man falling without Lucifer being fallen also existed.
The possibilty of Gabriel, Raphael, Michael also existed for them to fall as well; whether or not angels can fall now is debatable. Also the possibilty that all the angels would have remained loyal to God, and Satan would have been cast out alone also existed
Also foundation doesnt always mean the beginning, the start, it can refer to a stage of beginning, in that the Garden of Eve was a foundational period of the world, and in that Lucifer fell, and brought about man's downfall, Christ was prepared for the plan of salvation, since he saw that no man would be able to live a sinless life