Adam represented all men and Christ represented...who exactly?

Winman, thanks for your testimony. I was also 11 when I first responded to the Gospel in an identical way as you described. I personally dont think that I was saved then though although it is possible. I was 22 (2 years ago as I am now 24) when I really believed that I met Jesus of the Scripture. I was not a so called Calvinist then , in fact I probably had kindergarden knowledge of the bible at best as I never read it until that point.

You said "That's not true at all. We hear with our ears, but we believe with our heart."

I dont doubt this, but my point was that you dont think the Holy Spirit had anything to do with your internal change at conversion (Im talking about before). Just because He did indwell in you at the time before you believed doesnt mean He didnt effectually call you in your soul to an irresistable desire to come to Christ. Im just saying; I didnt even use the word regeneration for you . Im not talking about the things God did such as give us the Scriptures I am talking about true conviction of the heart and understanding of your sin and God's righteousness deep within. In order to believe with the heart we must see these things in our inner man and not merely just knowledge, in my opinion.

Im not going to comment on any more of your scriptures, I think we can agree to disagree at this point.

 

Well, thanks for your testimony as well. You know, you don't have to know much scripture to be saved, it is a fact that the vast majority of Christians accept Christ as a young child or teen. The gospel is simple, the rest of the Bible is not so simple.

But the scriptures clearly show that unregenerate man can hear the gospel, be convicted, repent, and then afterward receives the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Now, look at this carefully and see the order of events.

#1- Now when they heard this- This is when they heard the word of God
#2- they were pricked in their heart... What shall we do? - They were deeply reproved or convicted, exactly what Jesus said the Holy Spirit would do
#3- Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus- This is repentance, turning from unbelief to trust in Christ.
#4- And ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost - notice it is still called a gift even though they have repented and believed.

This is exactly what Eph 1:13 teaches.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This shows #1 hearing the gospel, #2 believing the gospel, #3 receiving the Holy Spirit.

If what you believe is true, then you have a man receiving the Holy Spirit twice, something that is absolutely not shown in scripture anywhere.

Look what Paul said:

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

This verse makes no sense at all if Calvinism is true. It would be ludicrous for Paul to ask these disciples if they had received the Holy Ghost since (which means after) they believed if a man can only believe after receiving the Spirit.

And I promise you, Paul knew the doctrines of salvation better than John Calvin or any other person except Jesus Christ. Paul was not just a theologian, the man was a genius. All scripture is written from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, this is God's word.

The scriptures simply do not show what Calvinism teaches. In 400 years no Calvinist has ever been able to show scripture that shows the Holy Spirit regenerates a man first, and then afterward the person is enabled to desire, hear with understanding and believe. It is not shown.

But on the contrary, there are many scriptures that show the unsaved man can hear and believe the gospel, and after doing so receive the Holy Spirit.

That's all I can tell you, just read the scriptures for yourself and see what they say. Don't listen to anybody, including me. Ask God to show you the truth and he will.

 

When Jesus healed people it was a picture of salvation. Look at these examples.

Matt 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

What do you see here first, the centurion's faith, or his servant being healed? You see faith first. Only after believing did Jesus heal his servant with supernatural power.

And if it were the opposite order, then why would faith be necessary? If the servant was already healed, there could be no faith.

A similar example.

Matt 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Again, what do you see first here, the woman's faith, or her daughter being healed? So, the supernatural work that healed the girl followed her mother's faith.

There are many, many examples like this, and they always show this order.

 

That is not true at all. I was deeply convicted, and even terrified by God's word. It had a profound effect on me.

Words have an affect on a man. Suppose I ran in your door and said all your family had just been killed in a serious automobile accident. Do you think my words would have an affect on you?

Picture yourself in a theater. Someone jumps up and screams, "Fire, fire!". Do you think that would affect you? I would be heading for the nearest exit.

So, words absolutely have an effect on a man. There is no supernatural work going on when someone shouts "fire!" in the theater.

But I tell you this, you would immediately see who believed. Those who remain in their seats did not believe, those who jump up and head for the exits did.

This is the problem with making faith into some mystical, magical power. It is not. We all have the ability to believe or disbelieve the words we hear.

 

I think this is good and bad advice. I think it is good because you are saying to give my attention totally on God. It is bad because you are telling me to ignore my brothers and sisters in Christ. They are a means by which God teaches us and to ignore them would be foolish. Teaching and preaching would be pointless. Why are you even talking to me at all if you want me to ignore you? Now on a side note, I have never read any Reformers work yet. Most of my understanding in Scripture about Salvation is not from my teachers but my personal time. I am not saying I have learned nothing from teachers on this subject because they have showed me my errors. I first started thinking about God's sovereign work in salvation in a discussion with a believer who did not hold it, I guess you could say I logically came to the conclusion. I think it was God showing me. I was very intrigued and excited about it ever since. It cleared up a lot of understanding about what happened to me (I am not speaking of regeneration, but God's Spirit at work).

Another thought is that God used my pastor to introduce me to the doctrine of the trinity as one of the first doctrines I studied. I was very engaged in preaching to my family because they are Jehovah's witnesses and I didnt understand what they believed but heard bad things. I went to my pastor to tell him of my burden to help them and he told me he was a Jehovah's Witness before he was converted and as his doctorate work he wrote "how to witness to a Jehovah's Witness." Instead of learning how to help my family God directed me through my pastor to know about Him, just as I wanted to already.

That isn’t true. Regeneration doesn’t mean receive It means regenerate. Receiving the Holy Spirit is when the Holy Spirit comes in and indwells you and you are sealed for eternal life. Regeneration is when the Holy Spirit comes and sparks life in a dead soul.
I have already told you that you do not have to place regeneration before faith and yet you can still have the sovereign work of the Spirit in salvation.

I am going to ask you an honest question that you probably will avoid . Have you read all of the writings of Calvinists in the past 400 years? Have you read any of them? No offense, but it seems like you have a poor view of Calvinism. I don’t say that to be rude, but I’m just being honest.

How do you know that it wasn’t the Holy Spirit who came into your life (not indwelling) at the time of that message and convicted you? You keep quoting John 16 which shows that the Spirit convicts. You seem like your saying that in and of yourself you became convicted with no help from God’s Spirit other than the fact that He inspired Scripture.

I do not make faith mystical. Show me one example where I did. I said faith is a gift but it still functions as faith. Your right we all have the ability to believe and disbelieve things. The trouble comes in when we are talking about a righteous God, an unrighteous sinner, and saving faith/repentance. Repentance is a change of heart, mind, and will from sin/rebellion to trust in Christ with all of your heart, mind, and soul. If faith was to just acknowledge God as God and Christ as Savior then you would be right, but its more than that. This is why there are many unregenerate people that think they are saved in our time. When talking about faith I think the Bible shows us that faith is a turn to Christ in light of your depths of sin, God’s righteousness, and judgment to come. We must see in our hearts that we really need a Savior and have a totally different desire (which is why we are repentant at heart) for His ways and for mercy with our whole lives. Now I know that in and of my sinful and hateful self that on my own I wouldnt have wanted Christ in the way I did when I was converted, not even close. I was in love with sin and partying and my dream car and all of the above. I loved to live life my way and to seek my desires yet I still acknowledge Christ and Savior; no, that isn’t repentance and wasn't real faith. The reason I had a dramatic and life changing encounter with God, and my heart was humble, poor, needy, desired righteousness, desired God, hated sin, denied self and willing to go to whatever the extreme, and so on was because God showed up with His grace and granted me everything I did not produce on my own. Now I had no idea what was going on at that time other than I desperately needed Jesus and desired Him for the first time over everything in life I loved so much (sin). I look back and thank God He had mercy on me and marvel at His ways.

You are very right about that and here is a good video.
RC Sproul did Romans today and talked a lot about this.
Ill warn you that you are listening to a Calvinist if you choose to watch it.

http://www.ligonier.org/rym/broadcasts/video/romans/

 

Tell me, the first time you ever read John 3:16, did you believe the words "world" and "whosoever" meant all of mankind, or just a few elect?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Did you believe these words meant all mankind? Or did your teachers correct you as you said?

I would make a friendly bet with you. If you wrote John 3:16 on a piece of paper and showed it to 100 children, maybe 7-10 years old, let them read it, and then asked if God died for all men or just some, I bet almost every one of them would say it means all men. And the same for the word whosoever.

The truth is, they should come up with that answer, because that is exactly what those words truly mean.

You must know if your parents are Jehovah's Witnesses that they do not believe the word "hell" in the Bible. They do not believe it is where the unsaved go to wait in torment until they are thrown in the lake of fire. They don't believe this even though Jesus told of the rich man who died and went to hell. The saddest part is, that is not a parable but a true story.

You must know they change the meaning and definition of the word hell to make it say something other than it is easily understood to say.

So tell me truthfully, did you think the words world and whosoever in John 3:16 meant all men, or just the elect?

 

No, that is conviction. The Holy Spirit convicts or reproves a man, not regenerates him to believe.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Look up that word reprove in a good concordance. The Holy Spirit through the word of God also gives a man understanding.

Psa 119: 130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

You know, the day I went to church when I was a boy, I wasn't worried about my soul. I had been taught that the good go to heaven and the evil go to hell. And I was a pretty good boy. Even when I grew up my parents said I was a very good and obedient boy when I was little. Oh, trust me, I did wrong, but for the most part I really did try to do right.

But when I heard the preaching of God's word I was told that even one little sin makes a person unworthy of earning heaven. And I knew I had done some wrong things like lying. And when I heard that the wages of sin is death, which means to be separated from God in hell forever, well, I tell you, that absolutely got my attention.

So, by God's word which is spirit and life I was convicted of my sins, and also made to know the penalty due for my sins. I also learned that Jesus paid my penalty for me, and Jesus would save me if I came to him. That was enough for me, I came to Jesus right then and there.

But the Holy Spirit works from the exterior, not interior. We have had several Calvinists quote John 3 as proof of their doctrine.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus compared the Holy Spirit to the wind. We can't see it with our eyes. But Jesus said "thou hearest the sound thereof". This is the word of God. We can hear the word of God with our ears. This is the only effect Jesus showed here on a man.

And let me ask you this, does the wind blow on the inside of your body, or on the outside?

So, you see, the Holy Spirit works from the exterior. You can hear the word of God. He does not penetrate you yet.

And again, this is what Revelations 3:20 shows.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Again, we see Jesus on the outside, knocking on your door. Now, how do you know when someone knocks on your door? You hear it of course. So Jesus is on the outside knocking and calling.

When someone knocks on the door you have a choice. You can go open the door, or you can refuse. You can pretend you do not hear it and ignore it, or you can shout for the person to go away.

But opening the door is a choice. And faith is a choice. When you hear God's word you can choose to believe it as truth, or you can reject it as falsehood.

But if you believe the word of God, you are going to open the door to Jesus. You know you are in trouble, but you also know Jesus loves you and can save you. So you open the door which is your will. Jesus has promised he will come in. Now, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are no longer on the outside, but inside of you. Now you are born again, regenerated and have life.

 

What about the word "world"? Does that mean all of mankind, or just the elect?

And if Calvinism is true, in my opinion you didn't do anything, in fact Calvinists say they didn't have any part in salvation. You didn't repent or believe, God did it for you. You responded just like this computer I am typing with at this moment. My computer isn't writing these words, I am. And if Calvinism is true, God is believing, not you. You are simply a programmed robot responding to the commands of God.

And I believe it was you that argued God doesn't have faith. How can he give you something he doesn't have? If God gives you what he has, that is not faith, for he knows he exists.

 

If God determines not to elect a person before the foundation of the world and doom them to everlasting torment, I certainly wouldn't call that love.

Do you consider that love?

If a lion does not have a desire to climb a tree and eat an apple, and God zaps him so he suddenly does have a desire to climb that tree and eat the apple, that is not the lion doing anything except following a programmed command. Actually, lost or saved the lion has no control whatsoever in what he desires to do, he is under complete control of God which makes God responsable for his actions.

How can God give you something he doesn't have? I thought it was you that argued God doesn't have faith, I argued he does. I know somebody here argued God doesn't have faith.

 

I certainly would question that. If God chooses to damn a person to millions upon millions of years of eternal torment before they are even born, I certainly would question him if he said he loved me.

If I am one of the unelect, what does it matter if I question him? Will that make it any worse?

According to Calvinism the lion can only obey the desires he has. There is no choice there. He is absolutely programmed. And if a sinner has to come to God when he is regenerated, if grace is irresistable, he has no choice there either. That is the very definition of irresistable. So either way, the lion is doing what God programmed him to do, and so God is responsible for his actions.

Faith is a dependence. When a skydiver jumps out of an airplane, he is trusting the parachute to get him to the ground safely. He wouldn't jump out of the plane if he didn't have faith in the parachute. If he trusts the parachute, then he does have assurance it will get him to the ground which is hoped for. But it will not be seen until he actually gets to the ground safely.

Jesus trusted his Father.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Jesus placed his spirit in his Father's hands. Look up the word commend, it means to entrust. Jesus willingly died and placed his spirit in his Father's hands and depended upon the Father to raise him from the dead.

This is funny, because I am arguing that God has faith and therefore could give faith to a man. You are arguing God doesn't have faith. If God doesn't have faith, how could he give it to a man?

 

I think you may be assuming these things. You are right I read John 3:16 and thought it meant the whole world and I still believe the context is all people.

well, at one point I wondered if it was the context because I heard otherwise (I thing Arthur Pink) and after I studied I believed it /was/is every person who ever lived.

I would disagree here because your logic would eventually lead me to think that it is foolish to study and reconsider my views. We are instructed to constantly refresh in God's word. I have been wrong on many first glances at Scripture and at times I was right. The only way to make sure is to keep studying.

My dad's side of the family is Baptist and my Mom's parents are JW's along with a couple of her brothers and sisters. My mom never gave into it, but tried the cult when I was young. I remember going to studies when I was like 6 or 7 but I didnt get it. I actually was taken to my Dads Baptist church on the weekends when I visited him so I was raised in a Baptist church to some degree although I would say my dad's side is more secular even though they go to church. I am aware of their beliefs not, they think that humans who arent saved will cease to exist. They change a lot of things in their version of the bible.

 

That is choice. If I tell my kids they can go see movie A or movie B, knowing that they will most likely choose movie B, they still have a choice.

But if I am utterly enslaved by my desires I have no choice, even if it is offered. And if grace is irresistable, I have no choice there either. So either way, I am no more than a programmed robot.

As far as God having faith, Luke 23:46 says Jesus commended or trusted his spirit into his Father's hands. If the Word of God says it, that is good enough for me.

 

Its funny you say that because I used to say the same thing. Even if you refuse to except the view for the sake of at least understanding look at irresistable grace this way

If a man sees God for who He is and then sees himself as who he is how can he resist? Its like seeing your life as a dollar and then someone offering to trade you a million dollars for the dollar. This is only an analogy, but do you see how God can be irresistable in a non robotic but sovereign way without forcing a choice?

It reminds me of Mathew 13:44 the parable of the hidden treasure.

 

I

This is a false dichotomy used quite often by calvinists. Circumstances dictate the choice. If your children were dying of hunger I guarantee they would eat the brussel sprouts...so to state they "never" would choose it is false.

 

Excellent point Webdog. I once read a book about the surrounding of Leningrad by the Germans in WWII once. The city was almost totally cut off from supplies for nearly one and a half years. People were dying of starvation by the hundreds daily. Animals and pets soon disappeared. People were boiling shoes to make soup, others made bread with a little flour mixed with sawdust. Cannabilism occured. It was a terrible situation.

And that is the difference between hunger and appetite. When you have an appetite you only want foods you enjoy. But if you are truly hungry you will eat nearly anything, even brussel sprouts.