Adam's transgression and our guilt

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by npetreley, Sep 29, 2004.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley
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    I found this particular analysis by a messianic Jew very interesting...

    "In Numbers 3, 22,000 Levites became substitutes for 22,000 of Israel's firstorn mailes, and the remaining 273, for whom there were no Levites, were ransomed by 1,365 shekels.

    In 1 Samuel 14, Jonathan came under sentence of death for transgressing a public oath his father made in his absence. Yet, although King Saul condemned him to die, the sentence was not carried out, because the people objected. But law is law, not to be ignored. So they ransomed him, and thus legally prevented his being put to death.

    We, too, like Jonathan, have come under the sentence of death. Jonathan was condemned to death even though he had been unaware of King Saul's oath and order. We are condemned to death, even though we have not sinned after the manner of the first Adam (see Romans 5:12-14). Like Jonathan, we must either die or be ransomed."


    - Moshe Ben-Maeir

    I think this covers very well the objection that we are somehow innocent of Adam's transgression because we did not choose to be born spiritually dead. Indeed, I would suggest that God chose to communicate this very thing through the story of Jonathan's ransom.

    (It should be obvious, but let me point out that Moshe is not saying we have not sinned, but that we have not sinned after the manner of Adam, who did so of his own free will, rather than because he was born with a sinful nature.)
     
  2. pinoybaptist

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    Yes, Nick. Adam is the only one with TRUE free will, and he blew it, taking everyone down with him.
     
  3. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    pinobaptist,

    I hope you gentlemen will allow me to step into this discussion. So are we to believe that God had this very unique dispensation where He gave Adam and Eve free will, but afterward all human sinners were placed on 'autopilot?'

    The fallen angels--the Devil and his cohorts all had free will, as did Adam and Eve and other all human sinners. Scripture confirms this. [John 3:16; I John 4:2; 4:15; 5:1; 5:5; 5:10; 5:13; & Revelation 22:17.

    According to your post, Adam and not Eve had free will.

    The fifth verse at the closing of the canon with the Book of Revelation denies 'the bondage of the will' which is hardly a true spin on the fact that the Lord says, 'And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely.

    Berrian, Th.D.
     
  4. Sularis

    Sularis
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    The ol fathers eat sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge thingie again eh?

    It taint right then and it aint right now

    Its not the soul that sins it shall make everyone descended from it hosed.

    the sons aint responsible for the fathers sin; although they may feel the consequences
     
  5. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Romans 5:12-21 indicates that by Adam's sin/Fall---all sinners are in the state of sinfulness because of his willful transgression in the Garden. [Romans 5:12 & I John 1:8 In theology we call this Original Sin. Every person born to physical life holds within his or her being a sin nature, a proclivity toward sinning.

    'The free gift is toward all men (people) which can lead to justification of or to life.' [Romans 5:18] Belief in Jesus as Savior is the catalyst which assures repentant sinners of life everlasting. [Acts 16:31]

    'Original sin and/or sins reigns unto death, {spiritual death} even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.' [Romans 5:21]

    Berrian
    :rolleyes:
     
  6. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
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    Sularis, is Romans 5 in your study Bible?
     
  7. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Ray Berrian said:
    And how does belief come ? And how does a sinner turn repentant ?
     
  8. Frogman

    Frogman
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    It is interesting to note here that in the Hebrew, Adam means man.

    According to scripture Eve was decieved, Adam sinned of his own will. How could he have had anything except a free will, having not sinned prior to the fall?

    Then there is the scriptural fact that there is no record according to the word of God that Adam and Eve either knew each other, that Eve conceived, or that a child was born until after the fall.

    This causes the offspring to inherit the nature of the parents.

    This then is the falling nature, not the original nature created free from sin and able to choose from a position of a free will.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  9. Sularis

    Sularis
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    Oh yes and the verses that state the children are not responsible for the sins of the father are too

    Oh we inherit a sin nature - that I most assuredly agree and will defend - but we inherit not one iota of sin or guilt - lest you make Jesus a spotted lamb.

    Remember what you impute to us humans you must impute to Jesus - for He became us!

    it is by the exercise of our will that we may choose not to sin, and thus not come under condemnation - but to do that on a daily basis for about 30 years requires a divine will
     
  10. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Sularis said:
    And there is not one human being who will be judged at the last day because of the sin of Adam, but because of their own sins.

    No. He did not become us . He became sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21). He put on human flesh (Phil. 2:6-8), but He did not inherit His human flesh from any human father, since He had no human father, neither was He descended directly from Adam (Luke 1:35), as you and I and everybody else.

    And where is the man who has the will not to sin in any way ? Not by deed, by thought, or by heart's intent ? I suppose you are speaking of yourself ?

    Yet, John, who walked with Jesus Himself, said to saints, washed in the blood of the Lamb, 'if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8).
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    I like to see Calvinists admitting that someone has free will.

    And Lucifer? Yes of course!

    And all the perfect sinless angels that later chose to fall? Yes of course! They had free will too.

    God was "still sovereign" even though his creation had free will. The falacy that God can not be sovereign if He gives free will to His creation is proven to have failed by simply reviewing the facts.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Jesus was born without a sinful nature. We are born with one.

    All those born WITH a sinFUL nature are in need of a Savior from sin.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. npetreley

    npetreley
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    We are all born with free will - that is, the freedom to do what we want, which is nothing good, thanks to the fact that we're born spiritually dead. But we still get to freely do what we want (barring God's intervention).
     
  14. athanaseusperez

    athanaseusperez
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  15. athanaseusperez

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    How can you say that we are not in a position to choose from a free will ? You just chose to write something that you thought would be spiritually helpful, you chose to do right today in your personal life, wether you were saved or not you chose to overcome some temptations. As a saved man you have Gods power, but even before you were saved you didnt do nothing but evil? What made Adams sin was not the fact that it was wrong for him to eat some particular fruit but because God said it was wrong. Sin is falling in the face of temptation when we knew it was wrong to do whatever the sin may be . Just like Adam was tempted , so are we and we have just as much the same willpower that he had when he was tempted . When you were unsaved did you have the willpower to not walk in the street when there were cars passing along . Or could you just not help it cause you were born evil and it was in your nature to disobey all right in this world , and you dont have the " NATURE CREATED FREE FROM SIN " Cause if it was the nature that makes the difference , then why is it sin now when we commit it? Shouldnt it just be the norm ? Why punish a man for murder if he couldnt help it , after all, his father and grandpa were murderes and that passed on to him . We were all created fearfully and wonderfully , how could we be so wonderful if we were born so sinful .
    Conclusion, the whole sin nature teaching is just to say that now we cant help it , since it is all Adams fault . Which is a lie out of hell and is from satan himself . Isnt if from him where we get the accuser of the bretheren part ? I would say that its a little like blame shifting. You wont go to hell because you were born a sinner and you never repented . You will go to hell because you chose to sin , and you went on a road or process which was nothing but lust and eventually sin when it is finished , it bringeth forth death .
     
  16. athanaseusperez

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    We are all born with free will - that is, the freedom to do what we want, which is nothing good, thanks to the fact that we're born spiritually dead. But we still get to freely do what we want (barring God's intervention). </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  17. athanaseusperez

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    You were doing good when you said we are all born with free will, but once you went to the part where you said " we do what we want , which is nothing good, " well you are dead wrong . Just answer this one question .... Before you were saved , did you ever lead someone to Christ ? If you never have . I am sure there is someone that can say they have . If they have was it good what they did or was it " nothing good "
     
  18. athanaseusperez

    athanaseusperez
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    Jesus was born without a sinful nature. We are born with one.

    All those born WITH a sinFUL nature are in need of a Savior from sin.

    In Christ,

    Bob
    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  19. athanaseusperez

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    What sins are listed in that sinful nature ? Do we all have different sinful natures or are they all the same ? If so , then how come people commit different sins ?
    Actually , neither of us were born with sinful natures, Jesus nor humans . First of all, Jesus wasnt born with the same seed an other humans were . He was conceived of the HOly Spirit , which was of a different seed . Thats why the bible calls him the SECOND ADAM because he was of the new seed . Then when we get saved we die physically with Christ on the cross like it says inn romans 6 and are buried with him and are ressurected and are no more of the old man but of the new .
     
  20. BobRyan

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    All of us have totally depraved sinful natures. All of us have the presence of the convicting Holy Spirit (John 16) who convicts "THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

    Each of us lives in a world with specific family values, culture, customs. Giving in to our sinful nature causes us to sin in the "easiest ways" available within our group of peers, culture society first.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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