Admittance: Mark 15:42 marks the start of the next day

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Mar 23, 2009.

  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    This is not spam. This is necessary to form a just opinion. Therefore please tolerate a few long postings.
    They will be followed up by my comments.

    First delivery (five pages printed):

    Thursday Crucifixion Date?

    An Admitting Mk15:42 Indicates the Start of Day

    By Carl Johnson, BA Physics, Pastor,

    A Christ Walk Church



    And



    Comments by C.G. Ebersöhn

    Plumber called to pour molten lead in the ears of the sleeping watchmen on the walls of God’s Holy City His Church



    Carl Johnson:

    Scriptural Support

    (Scripture is from the King James Version)

    Mark 15:25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
    Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
    Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
    Mark 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath,
    Mark 15:43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.
    Mark 15:44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.
    Mark 15:45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.
    Mark 15:46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.


    The Crucifixion of Jesus actually took place on Thursday! Hebrew days begin at sunset, and Sabbath Laws were strictly followed, and these facts have a significant effect on any discussion regarding the Crucifixion of Jesus. If Jesus had been crucified on Hebrew Friday, there would have been too many time consuming things for Joseph to do before sunset when the Sabbath would begin. Jewish law was that it was a mortal sin to do ANY work on the Sabbath. Jesus was almost certainly actually Crucified on Hebrew Thursday, and then placed in the tomb after sunset, in other words, on Hebrew Friday.
    This circumstance does NOT bring into doubt ANY of the Christian beliefs about Our Savior. It does not suggest that we should stop celebrating Good Friday. [Why should we in any case?] This discussion is presented here as merely an effort at establishing accurate and factual information about His Life and Death and Resurrection. [So are my comments.] It is CERTAINLY not meant to shake the Faith of any Christian. In contrast, we have long believed that accurate information about Our Lord can be of great value in STRENGTHENING or Faith!
    Jesus died late in the afternoon (3 pm). After this occurred, there was necessarily some delay before anyone knew. Then, once Joseph of Arimathaea realized this fact, he had to get official permission to remove the Body from the Cross. After this, he had to buy or otherwise obtain the linens and oils necessary for proper burial. Then, he had to get the Body down and transport it a substantial distance to the Sepulchre. Once there, the Body had to be prepared, wrapped, and placed in the tomb, all with respectful methods. This means definitely not rushing all of these things. This sequence of events certainly took more than the three hours that were available before sunset (6 pm).
    That means that the procedures would have to have continued until after sunset. Actually, John 19:39 tells us that Nicodemus came to Jesus by night, bringing the spices for the burial preparation. That means that the following day would have officially begun. That confirms that all the burial activity was not completed by sunset. If He actually died on Friday afternoon, these procedures would necessarily have continued on to the following day, the evening of the (beginning) Sabbath. The Sabbath Laws were extremely rigidly adhered to, since even the slightest failure regarding the extremely strict Sabbath Laws was considered a mortal sin (one of the Ten Commandments). That being the case, Joseph would certainly NOT chance defying the Sabbath Laws.
    This means that it is an almost certainty that He was Crucified and Died on Hebrew Thursday afternoon, and that He was then placed in the Sepulchre on the evening of Hebrew Friday, shortly after it became Hebrew Friday. He arose on Sunday, the Third Day, after nearly all of Friday, all of Saturday, and about half of Sunday.
    Since He was actually interred at the beginning of Hebrew Friday, it is understandable that Friday became associated with the Crucifixion. Since the development of modern clocks a few hundred years ago, society came to have an accurate way of identifying the moment of Midnight. Most societies chose to change to using Midnight as the moment of the change from one day to the next, mostly out of convenience, because most people were sleeping then and each wakeful period then represented one day for the majority of people.
    This alteration on the understanding of when each day begins simplified daily life, but it had a consequence. This means that the evening hours (from sunset to midnight) are now considered to be part of a different day than in ancient times. This has caused an element of confusion that affected our understanding of that very important day in history.
    For the fifteen hundred years prior to that change, it was correct and proper to honor Good Friday since He was interred at the beginning of Hebrew Friday, and the rest of the civilized world understood the same day structure (beginning at sunset), so Good Friday became a firmly established tradition. When this alteration of the clock and calendar was instituted a few hundred years ago, those six hours (from sunset to midnight on the beginning of Hebrew Friday) became the LAST six hours of what we now call Thursday! However, the tradition of Good Friday already had around 1500 years of recognition behind it, and the recognition of it has remained on Friday.
    There is really no reason to alter our present celebration of Good Friday, because it is as accurate a description as Thursday would have been. This discussion is not meant to be disruptive of our honoring His Gift to us, but rather a technical correction of precise facts.

    IN SUMMARY:

    Jesus was crucified at the third hour (mid morning) Mark 15:25
    (The twelve ancient Hebrew hours of the day were counted to be equally divided time periods from sunrise to sunset.) (In March, there are actually about 12 modern hours of daylight because it is near the Equinox.)
    Therefore hours accurately meant hours counted from 6 a.m. Jesus died at or after the ninth hour (mid afternoon-after 3 p.m.) Mark 15:34-37
    Evening came (at twelfth hour, about 6 p.m.) Mark 15:42.
    Hebrew days began at sunset, which is about 6 p.m. at this particular time or year. In other words, the next day began.
    At that time, the days of the week did not yet have individual names. They were referred to by their day number in the week, beginning with 1 representing what we now call Sunday.
    If the crucifixion had been on 6-(Friday) (what we would now call Friday, then 7-(Sabbath) would be beginning right at Mark 15:42. No "work" would have been legally (or morally) done and no more than a half-mile of walking (a Sabbath day's Journey) would have even been allowed. Pilate would never have authorized all the activity Joseph was about to accomplish, on the Sabbath. And Joseph would never have dared do any of it on the Sabbath.
     
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3

    Joseph went to Pilate and asked for the body. Mark 15:43-45
    This is likely to be near or AFTER sunset had come.

    Pilate was somewhat surprised at how quickly Jesus had died. Mark 15:44 It was common for crucified individuals to hang for several days on the cross.
    Joseph bought the linen; took Him down; and placed Him in the sepulchre. Mark 15:46
    The time sequence, including the activities of Joseph, as related by Mark, almost certainly would have had to take parts of TWO Hebrew days to actually complete. This strongly suggests that Jesus was actually crucified on Day 5 (Thursday) or what we now call THURSDAY. The Sabbath day was Day 7. There was also occasional use of the Roman weekday names, which will be included here in parenthesis for reference.
    The conventional Friday date for the crucifixion is impossible. Sunset occurred shortly after Jesus died (Mk 15:42). This would mean that the Sabbath had begun and no work was allowed. Even if we would try to interpret all of Joseph's activities (Mk 15:43-46) to be before sunset (Mk 15:42), there just isn't enough time. Since Jesus died after 3 p.m., less than 3 hours existed before the end of the day before the Sabbath. This would leave an impossibly short time sequence for Joseph to find Pilate; make his plea for Jesus' body; for Pilate to send a messenger for the centurion witness to confirm such; for Pilate to authorize Joseph to take the body; for Joseph to buy the linen; then get His body down; carry Him to the sepulchre; clean His wounds; wrap Him in the linen; place Him in the sepulchre; and arrange to roll the huge stone in front of the door; all before sunset! Keep in mind that the place of crucifixion and the location of Pilate (in the city) were NOT very near each other - - walking time must be included in the schedule. In the case of Joseph, this involves quite a few trips and many miles. Jerusalem has been destroyed so many times over the years that exact distances are not available, but certainly substantial distances applied. Additionally, the Sabbath rules were enforced remarkably thoroughly. As a possible affront to one of the Ten Commandments, an infringement of a Sabbath Law was considered a cardinal or mortal sin.
    Sabbath laws forbid carrying ANYTHING heavier than a dried fig during the Sabbath. Every possible contingency was and is covered by the Sabbath laws. One was not even allowed to unintentionally cause someone ELSE to violate the laws. Most people would not mail a letter on Friday, since it might not be delivered until after the Sabbath began. That would mean the possibility of causing someone else to be doing work, carrying the letter, on the Sabbath. Most people wouldn't even mail a letter on Wednesday or Thursday on the outside chance that the letter was not delivered before the Sabbath began. Nothing was ever begun or even authorized to begin on a Friday afternoon. There is no possibility that Pilate would have encouraged or even allowed Joseph to try to beat the sunset in a rush to get so many activities accomplished in preparing and burying Jesus. No one would have sold the linen to Joseph late on a Friday afternoon, and he wouldn't have been allowed to carry the linen or the cleaning supplies or His body. Nicodemus would never have carried the spices 'by night' during the Sabbath. No one else could have legally (or morally) helped him, either.
    Some people suggest that there was a rush to get Him down so He wasn't on the cross during the Sabbath. This does not agree with known procedures. Crucifixions were rather common (there are reports of 800 in one day!). The very thorough system of Jewish Law covered every detail of everything that could possibly happen. This included crucifixions. The crucified bodies were nearly always left on the cross (for days) until birds and roving animals took the remains. Dozens of detailed of Talmudic crucifixion laws existed which covered every conceivable possible occurrence, particularly regarding this decay and disassociation process. (There was even a provision where a matron could browse around during the days that criminals were on crosses and claim someone on a cross as a husband! Yev 16:3,15c) Very specific rules existed to ascertain the moment of death in a crucifixion. (Yev 16:3, et al) Rules existed regarding roving animals feeding from the body hanging on the cross (Yev 120b, et al), which was considered an indication that the crucifixion was completed. Extensive laws related to the procedure of divorcing someone on a cross, which necessarily considered the soundness of mind of the one being crucified (Tosef, Git 7:1, Git 70b). More legislation covered the subject of just when the blood became "impure." (Ohr 3:5, et al).
    The laws covering just what is allowed to be done on the Sabbath are even (far) more comprehensive. Many hundreds of pages of intricate laws methodically cover every possible contingency. The automatic scale of the punishments for each were defined, and were generally very severe. No one of the day would have dared break any of those laws. Even if Joseph would have dared challenge the laws, the variety of others he would have needed help from (to sell, to carry, to move, etc.) would NEVER have helped him.
    The conventional Friday date for the crucifixion is impossible. This would either make Joseph do (and Pilate authorize) unlawful activity on the Sabbath (as in the sequence actually described by Mark), or (if the timeline is artificially modified) rush around in a frenzy, which would be extremely sacrilegious and downright blasphemous. Neither of these are even remotely possible under the circumstances.
    Even if one somehow justifies interment activities on what we now call Friday night (trying to say Pilate felt bad and authorized the illegal work, for example), the 6-Friday crucifixion date then causes Him to be buried on 7-Sabbath and rise on the second day (1-Sunday), not the third.
    A Thursday date for the crucifixion is the only logical date which actually allows the third day ascension that we all accept. Jesus was crucified on 5-(Thursday) and respectfully put in the sepulchre on 6-(Friday). This entombment may have occurred on what we now call Thursday evening or during the day on Friday. Since His entombment was on Preparation day (6-(Friday)), when the Marys found Him arisen at dawn on 1-(Sunday), that was the third day while He was in the sepulchre.
     
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    There is further biblical support for this view. The original Greek for Mark 15:42 is usually interpreted:
    And now when the even was come, because it was the Preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath, but the word epei (Strong's # 1893) actually has a better interpretation than "because", that of "for then" or "thereupon", pointing out that the change of days had occurred. Using this meaning, Mark 15:42 is:
    And now when the even was come, for then it was the Preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath,
    or, in modern terms:
    And now that the sun sets, Preparation Day begins, that is, the day before the Sabbath.

    This is fully consistent with Mark (and the rest of the Bible).
    Jesus’ body was definitely placed in the sepulchre on 6-(Friday.) It would seem that Hebrew 6-(Friday) (which started at sunset Thursday and ended at sunset Friday, and the day before 7-(Sabbath)) had established so much tradition (in the Middle Ages) that it was maintained as Friday when the clock technology came into existence. This change caused a slightly different translation of that Scripture which neglected the proper understanding of Mk 15:42 (that of the moment of the change of day) and the potentially confusing fact that the actual crucifixion had occurred on 5 (Thursday). There is nothing wrong in celebrating Good Friday, but Good Thursday could be equally celebratable in our modern calendar.

    Respectfully submitted,
    Carl Johnson
    Pastor, A Christ Walk Church,
    BA Physics, University of Chicago

    Link to the Index of these Public Service Pages
    ( http://mb-soft.com/public/otherrel.html )
    E-mail to: [email protected]









    Comments

    All Thursday, night and day, “the first day”



    by C.G. Ebersöhn

    Plumber called to pour molten lead in the ears of the sleeping watchmen on the walls of God’s Holy City His Church

    on
    A Thursday Crucifixion Date?

    By Carl Johnson, BA Physics, Pastor, A Christ Walk Church







    Considering:

    At that time, the days of the week did not yet have individual names. They were referred to by their day number in the week, beginning with 1 representing what we now call Sunday.

    In New Testament times, as in Old Testament times the days of the week were named by their individual number in the week beginning with “the First Day”, representing what we now call Sunday.

    Considering:

    Evening came (at twelfth hour, about 6 p.m.) Mark 15:42. Hebrew days began at sunset, which is about 6 p.m. at this particular time or year. In other words, the next day began.

    Hebrew days began at sunset, which is about 6 p.m. at this particular time or year. .... Evening came at the twelfth hour, about 6 p.m. In other words, in Mark 15:42, the next day had begun.




    Considering:

    The Crucifixion of Jesus actually took place on Thursday! Hebrew days begin at sunset, and Sabbath Laws were strictly followed, and these facts have a significant effect on any discussion regarding the Crucifixion of Jesus.


    If Jesus had been crucified on Hebrew Friday, there would have been too many time consuming things for Joseph to do before sunset when the Sabbath would begin. [See 1 / 2, Par. 5.2.2.1, p. 111f] Jewish law was that it was a mortal sin to do ANY work on the Sabbath. Jesus was almost certainly actually Crucified on Hebrew Thursday, and then placed in the tomb after sunset, in other words, on Hebrew Friday.

    Considering:
    Pilate would never have authorized all the activity Joseph was about to accomplish, on the Sabbath. And Joseph would never have dared do any of it on the Sabbath.

    Concerning “Pilate would never have authorized all the activity Joseph was about to accomplish”, it is needless to say, Pilate would not care less; that is why he allowed Joseph to have the body in order to bury it.

    It is true “Joseph would never have dared do any of (the activity for the burial) on the Sabbath”; but he would not have hesitated, and did not waver from doing his Lawful duty concerning the interment of the Lord Jesus on the proper day determined for its doing, namely Abib 15, “great day sabbath” of the Passover.


    Considering:
    Joseph went to Pilate and asked for the body. Mark 15:43-45
    This is likely to be near or AFTER sunset had come.


    It definitely was AFTER sunset and deep into night after sunset, for more than one reason:
    1) Joseph had first eaten his Passover meal, cf. Jn18:28 and 19:31;
    2) Before Joseph, the Jews after sunset, had had their interview with Pilate first – Jn.19:31 and 38.

    3) Joseph not at all acted before “It had had become the evening since being the Preparation that is the Foresabbath”— the Fifth Day (Friday, Thursday evening after sunset).
     
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    Considering:
    The time sequence, including the activities of Joseph, as related by Mark, almost certainly would have had to take parts of TWO Hebrew days to actually complete. This strongly suggests that Jesus was actually crucified on Day 5 (Thursday) or what we now call THURSDAY. The Sabbath day was Day 7.

    The Sixth Day (Friday) was the Passover Sabbath, Nisan 15, the first day on which unleavened bread – together with the Passover lamb – was EATEN somewhere before midnight. It was the “great-day-sabbath” of passover distinctly NOT, “the first day” as such of passover, namely, “the first day .... they had to slaughter / always slaughtered the passover sacrifice” — Mk14:12/17; Mt26:17/20, Lk22:7/14; Jn13:1/19:14 —the first day .... the day of leaven’s removal”.

    Therefore please count like any child would:
    “.... Jesus was actually crucified on Day 5 (Thursday) or what we now call THURSDAY. The Sabbath day was Day 7 ....”
    a) “Day 5 (Thursday)” = “the first day”;
    b) “Hebrew 6-(Friday)” = the second day;
    c) “The Sabbath day was Day 7” = “the third day according to the Scriptures” and day upon which Christ “according to the Scriptures”, “rose again”, “from the dead”!

    Considering: “Jesus died late in the afternoon (3 pm). After this occurred, there was necessarily some delay before anyone knew.

    Why would everybody after ‘some delay’ only, come to realise that Jesus had died? Everybody present “at that scene”, ‘knew’— “having SEEN”, “what happened”, and having HEARD, Him say “Finished!”, Jn19:30 and how “He cried with a loud voice, saying, Father into Thy hands I commend my spirit; and having said thus, He gave up the ghost”, Lk23:46.

    “The centurion saw what was done .... and all the people that came to that sight beholding these things that were done”, namely Jesus’ dying and death! They “all”, afterwards, “returned (home)”. Lk23:28c. In fact, Mark, in 15:34 and 37, noted that the exact hour of Jesus’ death was noticed “it was the ninth hour” 3 p.m.. How could ‘anybody’, not, have ‘known’? Yours, Carl Johnson, has been ‘inaccurate establishing’ of “factual information about His Death” [See 5.2.1.2.2.1.] Quote, “Jesus was crucified at the third hour (mid morning) Mark 15:25 (The twelve ancient Hebrew hours of the day were counted to be equally divided time periods from sunrise to sunset.) (In March, there are actually about 12 modern hours of daylight because it is near the Equinox.) Therefore hours accurately meant hours counted from 6 a.m. Jesus died at or after the ninth hour (mid afternoon-after 3 p.m.) Mark 15:34-37” ---- ‘actually’, Jesus died in the full ninth hour— ‘3 p.m.’, Mark 15:34-37!


    Consider:
    ... then placed in the tomb after sunset, in other words, on Hebrew Friday.
    [See 5.2.2.1.6.3, 5.2.2.2 and 5.2.2.4.]

    What time?
    ... on Hebrew Friday” is correct.
    But that would mean, not, “placed in the tomb after sunset”, because that would have been on the Sabbath. Quote: “If the crucifixion had been on 6-(Friday) (what we would now call Friday, then 7-(Sabbath) would be beginning right at Mark 15:42.” Quote: “No "work" would have been legally (or morally) done and no more than a half-mile of walking (a Sabbath day's Journey) would have even been allowed. Pilate would never have authorized all the activity Joseph was about to accomplish, on the Sabbath. [Pilate wouldn’t care less; Joseph is the one who would not.] And Joseph would never have dared do any of it on the Sabbath.

    Nevertheless, the laws that applied for the Seventh Day Sabbath, did not apply to ‘ceremonial’, ‘sabbaths’, like ‘that great day of that sabbath’ of the passover that according to Jn19:31 and Mk15:42, had started, Abib 15.

    Considering:
    Joseph of Arimathaea realized ..... that it was a mortal sin to do ANY work on the Sabbath”—
    It is nothing but surmising. The actual implication and the actually mentioned factors according to the four Gospels why Joseph came to the fore to bury Jesus, are, that
    1) “then, once”, “after sunset”, and when he “realized ... there would have been too many time consuming things to do” before he would have had his task finished; and, that
    2) just like all the other Jews, he realised, “It therefore having become / since having become the Preparation and that the bodies might not remain on the crosses ....”

    So therefore Joseph undertook “to get official permission to remove the Body from the Cross.” However, neither could have been Joseph’s main reason why he had undertaken to bury the Lord’s body. It was the devout believer’s conscience—
    3) the conscience of one “who also himself waited for the Kingdom of God” (“according to the Scriptures”)—
    the conscience of one “being a disciple of Jesus” (Jn19:38b),
    that prompted Joseph to do what he did do.

    This means definitely not rushing all of these things. This sequence of events certainly took more than the three hours”, and could not have been done between 3 p.m. and sunset at 6.p.m..
     
  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    So, “... After this....
    Instead of, “he had to buy or otherwise obtain the linens and oils necessary for proper burial. Then, he had to get the Body down and transport it a substantial distance....”,
    read,
    Then, he had to get the Body down and transport it a substantial distance....” to another locality [See 5.2.2.1.5.3.], and “... After this he had to buy or otherwise obtain the linens and oils necessary for proper burial.

    So then, Joseph “had to get the Body down and transport it a substantial distance”— but not “to the Sepulchre”, but to another place – presumably to where he stayed – and “Once there, the Body had to be prepared, wrapped....”.

    Once there, the Body had to be prepared, wrapped ... all with respectful methods” and means that “were available”— not only “before sunset (6 pm)”, but, after “sunset (6 pm)”— which necessities Joseph in that night, in fact “purchased” (Mk15:46. Cf. i.a. Jn13:29) before he could do anything but have cleaned the body.

    Joseph bought the linen”. He did not first buy linen and then, “took Him down”. It is logical Joseph first removed the body from the cross, took it away to some safe place, and then went to buy the linen (in the night). He would have bought linen only after he had brought the body to safety. Joseph would not have left the body disrespectfully at the cross or the sepulchre nearby, because the guards would have thrown it into Gehenna.

    Only much later the following daylight Joseph would have “placed Him in the sepulchre. Mark 15:46

    And that again would still not mean the body was “placed in the tomb” there and then, but, it would mean that before the body was “placed in the tomb”, Joseph “had ... to transport” it back “to the Sepulchre”, because “the women (now) also followed after” (Lk23:55b) in the procession “to the Sepulchre”, whereafter “they sitting over against the sepulchre” (Mt27:61b), and “looking on”, saw (Mk15:47b, Lk23:55b) as the two men Joseph and Nicodemus “laid the body there” (Jn19:42a), and Joseph afterwards “rolled the stone before the tomb door and departed” (Mt27:60b); and the women also “returned home and prepared spices and ointments.” Lk23:56a.

    Thus, was “(Jesus) placed in the tomb .... on Hebrew Friday”, and eventually closed within the tomb, three whole hours before sunset, “mid-afternoon”.

    That means that the procedures would have” proceeded since “after sunset” Thursday night and would have “continued” all through that night and “until” “that same day” (Dt21:22-23) when finally He was closed in the tomb three hours before sunset, Lk23:54-56. Burial had taken all day Friday and Thursday night. Jesus was ‘actually’, interred before the weekly Sabbath on the “Preparation that is the Fore-Sabbath’ Mk15:42, “mid-afternoon” Lk23:54 .

    Considering: “Actually, John 19:39 tells us that Nicodemus came to Jesus by night, bringing the spices for the burial preparation. That means that the following day would have officially begun.

    Actually, John 19:39 tells us that Nicodemus who the first time went to Jesus by night, came to Joseph this time (also ‘by night’) where he was preparing the body for burial, and that he brought spices for the burial preparation, with. That means that the day following the day of Jesus’ crucifixion and death, already, “officially”, had had begun when “evening had come” Mk15:42/Mt27:57— ‘evening’ of the day they were yet to bury Jesus on.

    Considering: “That confirms that all the burial activity was not completed by sunset.

    That confirms that all the burial activity that had been begun after sunset in the evening of the Sixth Day (Thursday night), at last had been completed “mid-afternoon”, Lk23:54b, three hours before sunset “that same day” of the Sixth Day, Friday.

    It is never hinted at, that Burial was finished ‘just’ before sunset. That, is a complete fallacy.

    Considering: “If He actually died on Friday afternoon, these procedures would necessarily have continued on to the following day, the evening of the (beginning) Sabbath. The Sabbath Laws were extremely rigidly adhered to, since even the slightest failure regarding the extremely strict Sabbath Laws was considered a mortal sin (one of the Ten Commandments). That being the case, Joseph would certainly NOT chance defying the Sabbath Laws.

    If He actually died on Friday afternoon, these procedures would necessarily have had to begin on the following day, in the evening and the beginning of the Sabbath. That NOT being the case, Joseph “went in boldly unto Pilate, and asked the body of Jesus”, Mk15:43b, “that he might take away the body of Jesus”, Jn19:35b, for to that night, prepare it, with the view of course the next and same day, to inter it. Certainly NO chance defying the Sabbath Laws!


    Considering: “This means that it is an almost certainty that He was Crucified and Died on Hebrew Thursday afternoon, and that He was then placed in the Sepulchre on the evening of Hebrew Friday, shortly after it became Hebrew Friday.

    This means that it is an absolute certainty that He was Crucified and Died on Hebrew Thursday afternoon, and that shortly after it had become Hebrew Friday— cf. Jn19:31 with, “after these things” of verse 38— Joseph began to undertake to obtain the body in order to bury Jesus “as the custom (and Law, the Scriptures) of the Jews demanded”, Jn19:40c, Ex12:10b. He was then placed in the Sepulchre on the “following same day”, Dt21:22-23 et al, of Hebrew Friday, “mid afternoon”, Lk23:54b, according to these very laws of passover Scriptures.

     
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    Considering: “He arose on Sunday, the Third Day, after nearly all of Friday, all of Saturday, and about half of Sunday.

    He arose on Sunday, the Third Day”?!
    on Sunday” --- day three....?
    all of Saturday” --- day two....?
    all of Friday” --- day one....?
    .... but “He was Crucified and Died on Hebrew Thursday” --- day four.... which is absolutely certainly, a fake calculation; especially since the author of it is a “nuclear physicist”.

    What would have happened to Thursday’s hours while Jesus had been dead, and to all of Thursday’s hours while Jesus had been suffering dying and death? If one count Thursday Dying and Death, to Sunday Death and Resurrection, then Sunday must end up a fourth day. [1/1, p. 128, Par.5.1.1.6.2.4.6.2.]


    Considering: “This circumstance does NOT bring into doubt ANY of the Christian beliefs about Our Savior. It does not suggest that we should stop celebrating Good Friday. This discussion is presented here as merely an effort at establishing accurate and factual information about His Life and Death and Resurrection. It is CERTAINLY not meant to shake the Faith of any Christian. .... .... This discussion is not meant to be disruptive of our honoring His Gift to us, but rather a technical correction of precise facts.

    This sounds sweetly innocent; but it was a “circumstance” deliberately created by Carl Johnson, to establish certain Christian beliefs about Our Saviour that DO bring serious doubts to mind. It does not suggest that we should stop celebrating Good Friday; nor, that we should stop celebrating Good Friday because it is groundless commandments of men, contrary the real and true reason for celebrating Sabbaths’ Feast of Christian Faith (Col2:12-19, Hb4:4-5, 8-10). This discussion is presented here by Carl Johnson as explicitly an effort at establishing inaccurate, false and fatal information about the Lord’s Life and Death and Resurrection, CERTAINLY MEANT to demolish the Only Foundation of Faith and Christian Belief about Our Saviour concerning the Holy Sabbath Day He, is, Lord, of— in that HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD “In the fullness of the Sabbath Day, in the very mid-afternoon of Sabbath’s daylight anticipating the First Day of the week.” Mt28:1.

    In contrast, we have long believed that accurate information about Our Lord can be of great value in STRENGTHENING our Faith”, that “ye may know what is the exceeding greatness of (God’s) Power to us-ward who believe according to the working of His mighty Power which He wrought in Christ HAVING RAISED Him”, “by the Glory of the Father”, Eph1:19-20, Ro6:4), and “God from ALL His works the Seventh Day rested”. Hb4:4-5.

    Considering:
    The conventional Friday date for the crucifixion is impossible. Sunset occurred shortly after Jesus died (Mk 15:42). This would mean that the Sabbath had begun and no work was allowed. Even if we would try to interpret all of Joseph's activities (Mk 15:43-46) to be before sunset (Mk 15:42), there just isn't enough time. Since Jesus died after 3 p.m., less than 3 hours existed before the end of the day before the Sabbath. This would leave an impossibly short time sequence for Joseph to find Pilate; make his plea for Jesus' body; for Pilate to send a messenger for the centurion witness to confirm such; for Pilate to authorize Joseph to take the body; for Joseph to buy the linen; then get His body down; carry Him to the sepulchre; clean His wounds; wrap Him in the linen; place Him in the sepulchre; and arrange to roll the huge stone in front of the door; all before sunset! Keep in mind that the place of crucifixion and the location of Pilate (in the city) were NOT very near each other - - walking time must be included in the schedule. In the case of Joseph, this involves quite a few trips and many miles. Jerusalem has been destroyed so many times over the years that exact distances are not available, but certainly substantial distances applied. Additionally, the Sabbath rules were enforced remarkably thoroughly. As a possible affront to one of the Ten Commandments, an infringement of a Sabbath Law was considered a cardinal or mortal sin.
    Sabbath laws forbid carrying ANYTHING heavier than a dried fig during the Sabbath. Every possible contingency was and is covered by the Sabbath laws. One was not even allowed to unintentionally cause someone ELSE to violate the laws. Most people would not mail a letter on Friday, since it might not be delivered until after the Sabbath began. That would mean the possibility of causing someone else to be doing work, carrying the letter, on the Sabbath. Most people wouldn't even mail a letter on Wednesday or Thursday on the outside chance that the letter was not delivered before the Sabbath began. Nothing was ever begun or even authorized to begin on a Friday afternoon.

    How right you are! Therefore Joseph had to have started with his plans at the start of Friday – not at any day’s end!
     
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    Considering:
    There is no possibility that Pilate would have encouraged or even allowed Joseph to try to beat the sunset in a rush to get so many activities accomplished in preparing and burying Jesus. No one would have sold the linen to Joseph late on a Friday afternoon, and he wouldn't have been allowed to carry the linen or the cleaning supplies or His body. Nicodemus would never have carried the spices 'by night' during the Sabbath. No one else could have legally (or morally) helped him, either.

    .... which all may be well and true, but which is rather unnecessary and irrelevant information. John Carlson’s is an overkill of the issue of work permitted or prohibited on the Sabbath ignoring work allowed on and prescribed for ‘lesser’ sabbaths like “that great-dag-sabbath” of the passover Jesus was buried on and historically and “according to the Scriptures”, had to be buried on.

    But his observation has been keen, that had the Crucifixion been on the Sixth Day of the week, Friday, Joseph would have had to do all his business on the Sabbath Day. More importantly though, is what Carl Johnson misses, that the First Day of the week would never possibly have been the day of Jesus’ resurrection.


    Carl Johnson:
    Some people suggest that there was a rush to get Him down so He wasn't on the cross during the Sabbath. This does not agree with known procedures. [Keen observation!] Crucifixions were rather common (there are reports of 800 in one day!). The very thorough system of Jewish Law covered every detail of everything that could possibly happen. This included crucifixions. [Jewish law did not apply in case of crucifixions – it was the Roman authority’s modus operandi.] The crucified bodies were nearly always left on the cross (for days) until birds and roving animals took the remains. Dozens of detailed of Talmudic crucifixion laws [Talmudic laws are after Christ and of no significance in so far as our knowledge of Jesus’ times is concerned.] existed which covered every conceivable possible occurrence, particularly regarding this decay and disassociation process. (There was even a provision where a matron could browse around during the days that criminals were on crosses and claim someone on a cross as a husband! Yev 16:3,15c) Very specific rules existed to ascertain the moment of death in a crucifixion. (Yev 16:3, et al) Rules existed regarding roving animals feeding from the body hanging on the cross (Yev 120b, et al), which was considered an indication that the crucifixion was completed. Extensive laws related to the procedure of divorcing someone on a cross, which necessarily considered the soundness of mind of the one being crucified (Tosef, Git 7:1, Git 70b). More legislation covered the subject of just when the blood became "impure." (Ohr 3:5, et al).
    The laws covering just what is allowed to be done on the Sabbath are even (far) more comprehensive. Many hundreds of pages of intricate laws methodically cover every possible contingency. The automatic scale of the punishments for each were defined, and were generally very severe. No one of the day would have dared break any of those laws. Even if Joseph would have dared challenge the laws, the variety of others he would have needed help from (to sell, to carry, to move, etc.) would NEVER have helped him.

    GE:
    “Pilate gave Joseph leave”, “gave the body to Joseph, and “commanded that the body be delivered”— which implies the guards had to remove the body and deliver it to Joseph’s instructions. Only afterwards, did ‘Jewish’ law begin to apply. And Joseph acted accordingly as the Gospels well enough explain for the believer to accept and believe without a doubt, that
    1) the crucifixion occurred and Jesus died, and
    2) the Sixth Day “after it had become evening” had had begun before
    3) the Jews, went in to negotiate with Pilate; and after them only,
    4) Joseph, went in to ask Pilate Jesus’ body with the view to bury Him during and upon that already current yet still prospective day that with the evening had had started already and that would begin to decline when daylight “mid afternoon”, Joseph would have had closed the grave.

    Carl Johnson constantly is contradicting himself, and never really gets to grips with the real issue, that Jesus did not on the First Day of the week, rise from the dead; but on the Sabbath as all the Old Testament testified, and all the New Testament, confirmed. He accordingly has made effort in vain, even while and where the matter of fact of the case, drives home in his own mind where he states,

    The conventional Friday date for the crucifixion is impossible.

    This is but the first step in realising the bigger fraud of the Sunday resurrection tradition.

    The conventional Friday date for the crucifixion is impossible would either make Joseph do (and Pilate authorize) unlawful activity on the Sabbath (as in the sequence actually described by Mark), or (if the timeline is artificially modified) rush around in a frenzy, which would be extremely sacrilegious and downright blasphemous. Neither of these are even remotely possible under the circumstances.
    Even if one somehow justifies interment activities on what we now call Friday night (trying to say Pilate felt bad and authorized the illegal work, for example), the 6-Friday crucifixion date then causes Him to be buried on 7-Sabbath and rise on the second day (1-Sunday), not the third.

    Carl Johnson before suggested – as he is doing here again – that he considers the “three days and three nights” as the time the body lay in the grave – and not as the time of Jesus’ having suffered death and in dying death, died, and in this whole manner of experience, SUFFERED DEATH as being “in the heart of the earth, three days and three nights”. [Refer, e.g., 1 / 1, Par. 5.1.1.6.2.7, p. 140f.] Which illusion Carl Johnson suffers because he does not understand or believe that The Suffering Christ is God giving His Life for the sins of many.

    Carl Johnson concludes better than when he started his remonstrance:
    A Thursday date for the crucifixion is the only logical date which actually allows the third day ascension that we all accept. Jesus was crucified on 5-(Thursday) and respectfully put in the sepulchre on 6-(Friday). This entombment may have occurred on what we now call Thursday evening or during the day on Friday.

    Unfortunately Carl Johnson still is unable to take a final stand, seeing it is no matter of “or” or “may have”. Jesus’ body during the night of Thursday was prepared for interment; and during the day’s daylight, on Friday “mid-afternoon”, was closed in the grave behind the stone-door until He “Sabbath’s daytime”, rose again from the dead “according to the Scriptures the third day” of having SUFFERED DEATH.
     
  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    Carl Johnson:
    Since His entombment was on Preparation day (6-(Friday)), when the Marys found Him arisen at dawn on 1-(Sunday), that was the third day while He was in the sepulchre.

    Here’s that “while He was in the sepulchre” again. – Sunday would have been the fourth day Jesus was dead, and it therefore could not have been the day of His resurrection! If “while He was in the sepulchre” must be counted “three days and three nights”, Jesus must have suffered death dying death, and remained in death until He was resurrected from the dead, the fourth day— which is false.

    Carl Johnson:
    There is further biblical support for this view. The original Greek for Mark 15:42 is usually interpreted:
    And now when the even was come, because it was the Preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath, but the word epei (Strong's # 1893) actually has a better interpretation than "because", that of "for then" or "thereupon", pointing out that the change of days had occurred. Using this meaning, Mark 15:42 is:
    And now when the even was come, for then it was the Preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath,
    or, in modern terms:
    And now that the sun sets, Preparation Day begins, that is, the day before the Sabbath.

    One only should have said this in Past (Perfect) tense. The Aorist is Ingressive: And now that the sun had set, for then it was the Preparation Day. Carl Johnson remarks, “This is fully consistent with Mark (and the rest of the Bible).
     
  9. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amazing the number of hoops it is possible for one to erect, solely in order to have the events by the People of that day, namely The Romans, The Jews, the Disciples (specifically Joseph and Nicodemus), and even the Triune God to all combine to break not one, but two Sabbaths, with those occurring back-to-back on consecutive days, no less, and all the while claiming to honor and effectively 'reverence' the Sabbath.

    Absolutely amazing! :rolleyes:

    One thing is absolutely correct, here in those posts, however. The crucifixion did, in fact, occur on Thursday, in the week, as we now reckon time and days (and the Romans also would have also, even if not identifying the name of the day as Thursday) which was on the 5th Day of the week, as time was calculated by the Jews.

    Ed
     
  10. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,970
    Likes Received:
    128
    Who can read all that :sleeping_2:
    ...and the resurrection
    ...and our justification
    ... our propitiation
    ...our atonement

    Praise be to God!

    Rob
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    GE here:

    Deacon, are you refering to what happened on Crucifixion-day, yours is perfect Seventhday Adventists talk; in fact, perfect Roman Catholic doctrine. For neither of the resurrection, justification, propitiation or atonement, "occurred" on Crucifixion-day --- WHICHEVER day of the week it might have been.

    These things were ONLY completed and effected and sealed, with, and by the reusrrection of Christ from the dead : "In SABBATH'S-time".

    Dear Ed Sutton cannot say anything straight-forward. All I am able to understand from his attempted upper-lip English, is that the Sabbaths' 'breaking' is heartbreaking for him. Have you become a legalists in the meantime, dear Ed Sutton?
     
  12. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    My friend, it is not incumbent on you (or any other 'BBer'), in any manner whatsoever, to agree with a single thing I have ever posted on the Baptist Board.

    However, NEVER let it be said that I (EdSutton) have ever said one thing that is not entirely straight-forward, apart from obvious jokes and humor attempts! :(

    Ee
     
    #12 EdSutton, May 19, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2009
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    Like it seems just about every reply of yours on something I have said, is a humourous attempt at poking a joke at me. Well, that's how you created the impression on me. But I don't want to waste opportunity and time on humour myself; I'm just not gifted for it.

    I like straight talk: So what do you mean by breaking back to back sabbaths; a wrestling match between them?
     
  14. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    The "High Day 'Sabbath'" was a Sabbath for the Jews. The weekly Sabbath was a Sabbath for the Jews.

    Yet unless you (not me) are the one who is not being clear, you have effectively claimed that some of the events with Joseph and Nicodemus and the burial of Jesus' body had to have taken place after sundown, and after the onset of 15 Nisan/Abib, simply because there was not enough time for this to have taken place before sundown. This ignores the simple fact that both Nicodemus and Joseph were both 'well-heeled' (as well as influential) with access to more than a few shekels. Thus they didn't have to put up with the usual clap-trap one might expect from the locals, and could have paid the price for the spices, etc. no questions asked, had Nicodemus so chosen. I contend that he did just that. He wasn't into the usual haggling over price at that moment, for he did not have the time to waste. IMO, it was price asked; price paid. End of story! And likely greatly to the surprise of the one selling the spices, for such was effectively unheard of in the Ancient Near East, where it was even expected that there would normally be a long, drawn-out haggling and bargaining between the two parties over the cost of anything.

    The Book of John specifically tells us that the tomb of Joseph was nearby. This was used in order to have the Lord's body buried by sundown, IMO (It was the Preparation, i.e. 14 Nisan, or Passover, although colloquial usage had now relegated the Biblical usage of "Passover", to what was properly "the feast of Unleavened bread", "the Sabbath drew near" and now not one, but two Sabbaths were to occur, with the Sabbath of Nisan 15 (Unleavened Bread) to precede the regular weekly Sabbath that fell on Nisan 16 of that year. Yet both were Sabbaths. There is not any difference between "a holy convocation" and "a holy convocation" in Lev. 21 I do not believe, at least as I am able to read Scripture. The Sabbath was a time of rest, not activity.

    In addition, if I remember, you have also argued that the resurrection of the Lord Jesus also took place on the Sabbath, i.e. the seventh day, as well.

    Among at least 2 ways you have spoken of this is "in Sabbath's fullness" and "in Sabbath's time" neither of which phrases are to be found anywhere in Scripture, as translated into English, at least in the 20 English versions I have access to on Bible Gateway.

    And for free, I'll also tack on that both a 'traditional' Friday crucifixion and a Wednesday crucifixion (as we today reckon time) both also require the Lord Jesus Christ, Himself, to break the Sabbath, as well, albeit the one preceding the crucifixion week, in traveling to or from Bethany.

    The Thursday crucifixion does happen to be correct for the day of the crucifixion, again as we reckon time, despite your own convoluted reasoning and gyrations that serve to skew what is actually being said, IMO.

    Ed
     
    #14 EdSutton, May 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2009
  15. Gup20

    Gup20
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    1
    This seems overly convoluted and complex.

    I was looking online for something about the "sign of Jonas" that Jesus talks about (3 days in the belly of the whale = 3 days in the earth), and I ran accross this paper by a person named Jen Shroder.

    http://www.blessedcause.org/BlessedCause Exclusives/ThreeDaysPrintable.htm

    I think this paper deals wtih the underlying questions of this thread so that none of this is necessary. It feels right to me - perhaps it is the Holy Spirit within me bearing witness. I encourage all to read the link.
     
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    Dear Gup20,

    Let us begin at the beginning you here give us: "....Jesus talks about (3 days in the belly of the whale = 3 days in the earth), ...."

    Asked:
    List the obvious, literal errors:
    1) 3 days
    2) Jesus ... 3 days in the belly of the whale
    3) " = "
    4) ".... in the earth ..."
    Jesus talks about (3 days in the belly of the whale = 3 days in the earth),

    Dear Gup20, NOT A SINGLE CORRECT STATEMENT!

    So, Let's start all over again. Simple : Just go read Mt 12: 40.

    GE
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    GE:
    Dear Gup20,
    May I humbly recommend you ALSO consult the wb page here ....
     
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ed Sutton:
    The "High Day 'Sabbath'" was a Sabbath for the Jews. The weekly Sabbath was a Sabbath for the Jews.

    Yet unless you (not me) are the one who is not being clear, you have effectively claimed that some of the events with Joseph and Nicodemus and the burial of Jesus' body had to have taken place after sundown, and after the onset of 15 Nisan/Abib, simply because there was not enough time for this to have taken place before sundown. This ignores the simple fact that both Nicodemus and Joseph were both 'well-heeled' (as well as influential) with access to more than a few shekels. Thus they didn't have to put up with the usual clap-trap one might expect from the locals, and could have paid the price for the spices, etc. no questions asked, had Nicodemus so chosen. I contend that he did just that. He wasn't into the usual haggling over price at that moment, for he did not have the time to waste. IMO, it was price asked; price paid. End of story! And likely greatly to the surprise of the one selling the spices, for such was effectively unheard of in the Ancient Near East, where it was even expected that there would normally be a long, drawn-out haggling and bargaining between the two parties over the cost of anything.

    The Book of John specifically tells us that the tomb of Joseph was nearby. This was used in order to have the Lord's body buried by sundown, IMO (It was the Preparation, i.e. 14 Nisan, or Passover, although colloquial usage had now relegated the Biblical usage of "Passover", to what was properly "the feast of Unleavened bread", "the Sabbath drew near" and now not one, but two Sabbaths were to occur, with the Sabbath of Nisan 15 (Unleavened Bread) to precede the regular weekly Sabbath that fell on Nisan 16 of that year. Yet both were Sabbaths. There is not any difference between "a holy convocation" and "a holy convocation" in Lev. 21 I do not believe, at least as I am able to read Scripture. The Sabbath was a time of rest, not activity.

    In addition, if I remember, you have also argued that the resurrection of the Lord Jesus also took place on the Sabbath, i.e. the seventh day, as well.

    Among at least 2 ways you have spoken of this is "in Sabbath's fullness" and "in Sabbath's time" neither of which phrases are to be found anywhere in Scripture, as translated into English, at least in the 20 English versions I have access to on Bible Gateway.

    And for free, I'll also tack on that both a 'traditional' Friday crucifixion and a Wednesday crucifixion (as we today reckon time) both also require the Lord Jesus Christ, Himself, to break the Sabbath, as well, albeit the one preceding the crucifixion week, in traveling to or from Bethany.

    The Thursday crucifixion does happen to be correct for the day of the crucifixion, again as we reckon time, despite your own convoluted reasoning and gyrations that serve to skew what is actually being said, IMO.

    GE:
    Re: ES:
    The "High Day 'Sabbath'" was a Sabbath for the Jews. The weekly Sabbath was a Sabbath for the Jews.

    GE:
    Fine, agreed ..... Which day of week was “The "High Day 'Sabbath”?
    Friday, I should say. The day just before – ‘back to back with’ – “The weekly Sabbath” : ‘Sixth Day’ of the week; ‘Friday’.

    Re:
    ES:
    Yet unless you (not me) are the one who is not being clear, you have effectively claimed that some of the events with Joseph and Nicodemus and the burial of Jesus' body had to have taken place after sundown ....

    GE:
    It’s a pity I did not make myself absolutely clear, that I am claiming all the events with Joseph and Nicodemus and the burial of Jesus' body, had taken place after sundown; not only “some of the events .... effectively”. Therefore to re-affirm : “All the events with Joseph and Nicodemus and the burial”, literally :
    “And now when the evening was come, because it was the Preparation, that is, the Fore-Sabbath, Joseph ....” Mk15:42;
    “When the even was come, there came Joseph ....” Mt27:57; “
    “All the people that came together to that sight, having seen the things that happened, much afraid, went home ..... Now see, Joseph ..... this man, went unto Pilate ....” Lk23:48,50;
    “The Jews, because it was the Preparation— that the bodies should, not remain, on the cross .... besought Pilate that their legs might, be, broken and that they might, be, taken away .... And after, this, Joseph secretly asked Pilate that he might, take away the body ....” Jn19:31,38.

    No smart words, “unless you .... the one who is not being clear .... have effectively claimed that some of the events .... had to have taken place”; just ordinary words, Joseph started to undertake to bury the body of Jesus that day still, after it had had become evening and after sunset. As John explained: “Because it was a high day sabbath, that day”. Yes, for our conditioned hearing, not much sense in; but when understood “as custom / rule / law of the Jews to bury”, the passover-procedures of Ex 12 and Lv23 give clear meaning to all these ‘events’.
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3

    Re:
    ES:
    after sundown, and after the onset of 15 Nisan/Abib, simply because there was not enough time for this to have taken place before sundown.

    GE:
    The obvious indications of time and day given about
    when, “this” actually took place, are :
    a) “this” actually beginning Mk15:42, Mt27:57, Jn19:31,38, Lk23:48,50, “sundown” (Thursday night); and
    b) “this” actually ending Lk23:54, Jn19:42, “mid-afternoon” 3 p.m. the Sixth Day (Friday)
    21 hours in all.

    According to you, these ‘events’ Thursday earliest 3 p.m. (Mt27:45) immediately after Jesus had died, started.
    According to you, these ‘events’ Thursday afternoon ended well “before sundown” 6 p.m.
    in less than 3 hours all in all.

    21 hours over against say 2 hours? There would certainly not have been “enough time for this to have taken place before sundown.” You have proved it beyond a doubt yourself. With an assumed lack of time, you, are trying to prove there was ample time so that the Burial could have taken place on the same day the Crucifixion took place. Normally, one would think this would prove the Burial could not have taken place on the same day that the Crucifixion took place. Normally.

    Normally, “sundown” would mean the day has begun; normally, “afternoon”, would mean, “That day”, which “was the Preparation” (‘Friday’), Lk23:54, entered its last quarter and was running out. Normally.

    Only remember, who is it who is saying, “after sundown, and after the onset of 15 Nisan/Abib, (there) simply .... was not enough time for this to have taken place before sundown.” It was Ed Sutton; it was not GE. GE has never appealed to the time-shortage factor; GE only appeals to Scripture ‘statistics’ of time, days and dates. GE has consistently been appealing to the ample time reality. GE has consistently maintained the feeble excuse “simply because there was not enough time for this to have taken place before sundown” carries no weight at all.

    ES:
    This ignores the simple fact that both Nicodemus and Joseph were both 'well-heeled' (as well as influential) with access to more than a few shekels. Thus they didn't have to put up with the usual clap-trap one might expect from the locals, and could have paid the price for the spices, etc. no questions asked, had Nicodemus so chosen. I contend that he did just that. He wasn't into the usual haggling over price at that moment, for he did not have the time to waste. IMO, it was price asked; price paid. End of story! And likely greatly to the surprise of the one selling the spices, for such was effectively unheard of in the Ancient Near East, where it was even expected that there would normally be a long, drawn-out haggling and bargaining between the two parties over the cost of anything.

    GE:
    Now read, who, is haggling over prices and any kind of irrelevancies! Is it GE? Ed Sutton is of the opinion, “This ignores the simple fact that .....”— “this” : the ‘shortage of time story’. “..... simply because there was not enough time for this to have taken place before sundown ..... ignores the simple fact that both Nicodemus and Joseph were both 'well-heeled .....” What can I say else? I have nothing further to say on Ed Sutton’s ‘drawn-out haggling and bargaining’ over ‘much ado about nothing’. What have you, Ed Sutton, been trying to tell us with ‘this’? That the Burial had to have been on the day Jesus was crucified, and could not possibly have been the ‘event’ of the day that started with the evening after the day on which Jesus was crucified? Well, dear readers, hear the lofty speech!

    What next?

    ES:
    The Book of John specifically tells us that the tomb of Joseph was nearby. This was used in order to have the Lord's body buried by sundown ....

    GE:
    Re:
    The Book of John specifically tells us that the tomb of Joseph was nearby. This was used in order to have the Lord's body buried by sundown.....

    First things first; therefore: Please give the Scripture in John where it says, “..... the tomb of Joseph was nearby. This was used in order to have the Lord's body buried” : “by sundown.....

    You should have let John speak for itself, and say, ‘..... the tomb of Joseph that was nearby, was used to have the Lord's body buried.

    This is all, and this is the only thing John said. What you added, is untrue. John is in full agreement with the other Gospels, and here, as far as time-indication is concerned, in particular with the Gospel of Luke. Luke states the time of day Joseph had closed the grave and had left: “It was mid-afternoon before the First Day. And the women went home and prepared spices.” John says, “because of the time-of-preparations of the Jews” had begun, “the tomb of Joseph that was nearby, was used to have the Lord's body buried” : like in Luke, “mid-afternoon”. Three hours to follow; not three hours before, “sundown! Nothing of, “in order to before sundown have the Lord's body buried.” How far will you go to have it your way, only to vindicate Sunday for having been the day of the Lord’s resurrection and not the Lord’s Sabbath? As far as making both John and Luke tell a gross, insulting lie!

    This was not why they still had to buried Jesus there; this was why they had finished to bury Jesus there! I remember having read of Prophecy that centuries before foretold, Joseph’s tomb would be used for Jesus’ interment. I have read God-fearing men who recognised God’s providence in these ‘events’ about Jesus’ interment. Point I want to make : Joseph’s tomb was not used as an emergency measure to beat time before the Sabbath would start. “Buried by sundown” because of time was of the essence, is a myth created by Sunday-resurrectionists. If scarcity of time before sunset were the driving force behind the use of Joseph’s sepulchre, the whole event of the burial would make no sense. Why not simply throw the body away as they did with the other crucified? – exactly as the Jews actually had requested some 21 hours before, Jn19:31. For what would Joseph have done all the trouble to obtain the body for proper burial if he had not planned to use his own sepulchre for the purpose and because it was near, at hand, and prepared? Because Joseph’s grave was “at hand” – “near”, “they buried Jesus there”. The near grave was the only commodity “to bury as the custom / law of the Jews prescribed to bury” that was ready and available because “near” from the first! No contingency, ‘O my, where are we going to lay the body down because it is almost sundown!’ forced itself upon Joseph’s mind like an afterthought, as though time had run out on him. ‘My own grave nearby! It’s our only option!’ False! The whole notion is, made up to confuse and impose.

    No! Joseph used his own tomb to bury Jesus in because he had his undertaking properly planned, as show every move he made, from daring to ask for the body and getting Pilate to give orders to have the body delivered to his place away from the crosses, buying the linen; advising Nicodemus; arranging with the women to attend; and eventually to bring the body to its place of interment and lay it down. John relates the whole process, like this: “Then ....” – that was long after Joseph had asked Pilate’s permission and long after Nicodemus “came there also” – “Then took they the body of Jesus and wound it in linen sheets with the spices – as the manner of the Jews (according to the passover-prescriptions) is to bury.”

    And so they buried Jesus.
     
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    John does not give every or all the detail, as is obvious from the other Gospels. (The laying in the tomb was the penultimate action; the closing of the grave with the stone door, was the final action. John says nothing about it.)

    John does not to the sequence of his sentences follow chronological sequence. On the contrary, it is characteristic of John by way of parentheses to ever so often look back, and give a summary of events up to a certain point in time past. Like in verse 41-42, where John refers back and reminisces,

    There was in the place where He was crucified, a garden; and in the garden a new tomb (Joseph’s) in which was never man laid yet. There, where the tomb was nearby therefore, they by the Jews’ preparation-hours beginning (on Fridays) had finished to bury Jesus.”

    What was near?
    Because the grave was near they buried Jesus there”,
    not, “Because the Sabbath was near they buried Jesus there”! (Nuwe Afrikaanse Bybel) Not because the day was virtually over “buried they Jesus there”, but because three quarters of a day in time ago Joseph already had had begun his undertaking; and “Now therefore they (finishing entombment) laid Jesus there by preparations-time of the Jews (having dawned) and the sepulchre was (prepared and) near (and ready at hand).”


    ES:
    IMO (It was the Preparation, i.e. 14 Nisan, or Passover, although colloquial usage had now relegated the Biblical usage of "Passover", to what was properly "the feast of Unleavened bread", "the Sabbath drew near" and now not one, but two Sabbaths were to occur, with the Sabbath of Nisan 15 (Unleavened Bread) to precede the regular weekly Sabbath that fell on Nisan 16 of that year.

    GE:
    How near perfect are we in agreement here, dear Ed Sutton! Especially for this enquiry we are busy with, your words: “now not one, but two Sabbaths were to occur .....” “were”, “to”, occur! Now, of the “two Sabbaths”, the first one, “the Sabbath of Nisan 15 (Unleavened Bread)” – was prospective; it lay ahead, it was “to”, occur!

    But where in time do we find ourselves, “Now”? for this, you give conflicting information!

    First you say “It was the Preparation” – a reference to Mk15:42 / Mt27:57 and Jn19:31. “Now when evening had come it being the Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath” : Friday, which as yet, was, “to”, occur, still, yes. But, which as “now”, had had begun already, by “now, had been (its) evening already”, it by “now”, being aftersundown”, “already”. And Joseph “after these things” – which the Jews after sunset had done before he could do anything – “now” only, went to Pilate to ask for the body. “The Sabbath of Nisan 15 (Unleavened Bread)”, “now”, was not only yet future – was not only yet “to occur”; “drew near” no longer : it “already had had started”. “Now” we in time find ourselves at the beginning of Joseph’s undertaking! Not even in it, yet!

    And this now is where you make your mistake, and contradict yourself, where you confuse the end of this day (and Joseph’s undertaking), with its own beginning, and put its “mid-afternoon” ending-period (and Joseph’s closing of the grave) – its ‘drawing near-to-the-Sabbath, closing-period’ – right at this day’s “evening” after “sundownbeginning-period. In one breath you say, “It was the Preparation” quoting Mk15:42, and, “the Sabbath drew near” quoting Luke 23:54 as were these texts speaking of the same period of day. Instead of to allocate Lk23:54, “daylight (of Friday) tended towards the (pending weekly) Sabbath” that as yet had not started but was yet “to occur”, you allocate it to when the rest of “the feast of Unleavened bread”-‘sabbath’ that “had had begun already” the previous “evening”, was yet “to occur”.

    Yes, “now”, “when it had become evening and the Preparation” – Friday night – not one, but two Sabbaths were to occuryet, “with the Sabbath of Nisan 15 (Unleavened Bread)” that preceded the regular weekly Sabbath, “already” (‘ehdeh’), its “evening” proper after ‘sundown’, “come”, current, and, prospective.

    ES:
    “Yet both were Sabbaths ....

    GE:
    Yes!

    ES:
    There is not any difference between "a holy convocation" and "a holy convocation" in Lev. 21; I do not believe, at least as I am able to read Scripture. The Sabbath was a time of rest, not activity.

    GE:
    On both aspects I beg to differ with you greatly, but which things at this point in time and argument are of less importance. See other discussions between us and sundry studies of mine on these issues.
     

Share This Page

Loading...