Adoption

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Van, Mar 1, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    More than one poster has asserted we have been adopted, referring to us becoming children of God.

    One poster claims we become adopted when we are born anew. No scripture was given to support this mistaken view.

    Another poster claimed there are three aspects to adoption.
    1) It was claimed Romans 8:15 referred to our being children of God because we had the Spirit of Adoption. Thus we had been adopted. This is utter nonsense. The Spirit of Adoption is simply referring the Holy Spirit which was given as a pledge to our future adoption. Our "sonship" comes from being born spiritually into God's family, not from adoption.

    2) Adoption does indeed refer to our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming. This is the only actual way it is used which refers to receiving the full benefits as sons under the New Covenant. This view matches the Lexicons and the context of every usage.

    3) Romans 9:4, referring to the Old Covenant adoption of Israel was mentioned to support the idea of many meanings. This usage is entirely non-germane to the topic. ​

    Here is the simple fact, we come children of God when God puts us spiritually in Christ. In Christ we are born anew. Thus children of God, not through adoption, but through rebirth. Now as sons, we will receive our full benefits in the future, including the redemption of our bodies, and this future action Paul refers to as adoption.

    To quote DHK,
    DHK also tried to say we are slaves to Christ through adoption, but then had to back track because we cry out Abba Father, which is something a son but not a slave would do.

    Finally DHK used the phrase "spirit of adoption" not referring to the Holy Spirit, but to our attitude of slaveship to Christ. However, verse 16 clearly indicates the Holy Spirit is in view.
     
  2. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,971
    Likes Received:
    371
    He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself. I am not sure that I understand your point in separating “born anew” from “adoption.” Do you mean that we are children of God (by rebirth) to be adopted in the future? If so, adopted into what?
     
  3. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    There was another thread where I had fully explained this concept. I didn't realize it was now closed. Let me copy my previous post from that thread here:

    A lexicon can only give you the literal meaning of a word, like a dictionary does. For example, if you look up "church" in the dictionary it may give you "denomination" as in Roman Catholic Church, a definition nowhere found in the Bible.
    Meanings of words are found in the contexts in which they are used.

    Go again to Romans 8:
    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    --Verse 14 speaks both of sonship, which begins at salvation, and relationship, which continues throughout one's spiritual journey as a child of God. We have that relationship because we are the "sons of God."

    In verse 15, "the spirit of bondage" is pitted against (or contrasted to) the "Spirit of adoption." An unsaved person is a servant to the law and in bondage to the law. When he is born again he is freed from the law and of servitude to it. Out of bondage he comes, as a slave to it, and is put into the household of God.
    Paul said:
    Romans 1:1 Paul, bondman of Jesus Christ, [a] called apostle, separated to God's glad tidings, (Darby)
    He was a bondman, a slave, to Christ, but not under the law.
    Thus he is now in God's household as a slave.
    As a slave the relationship is different. It is different in two ways:
    One, it is in a spirit of adoption. A slave is adopted not born.
    Second, it is in a spirit of love. The love is so intense that he calls his Father, "Abba," the most endearing term a child has for his parent.

    There are three aspects of adoption; or three ways in which it is used:
    Here in verse 15, it refers to the reality of adoption which we are very conscious of. We know that we are sons of God. We have a daily relationship with him. We have been adopted into his family. We are his servants, to do as he commands.

    In verse 23 it looks forward to the time when the body will be redeemed or glorified.

    In Romans 9:4
    Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    --Here it looks back to the time when God designated Israel as his sons.

    Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
    5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
    Here the word "adoption" means "son-placing," that which God did when we were born into his family--regenerated/saved. We were given all the rights and privileges of son-ship. Every person that is born into the family of God is also a "son," and has all the privileges given to such a one--special privileges.

    Thus there are three aspects to adoption, only one of which is future.
     
    #3 DHK, Mar 1, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2014
  4. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,971
    Likes Received:
    371
    :wavey: Thanks, I'm following now. (Kinda got lost in the mix not having read the initial thread).
     
  5. JamesL

    JamesL
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2013
    Messages:
    2,246
    Likes Received:
    76
    Great misunderstanding of "son" by all parties involved, IMHO
     
  6. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Hi JamesL, rather than casting vague and generalized aspersions, why not present your view with clarity.
     
  7. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    The meaning of the phrase "adoption as sons" is in dispute. The two views are that adoption refers to only one thing as used by Paul when referring to the New Covenant (not referring to the adoption of Israel, Romans 9:4) with DHK asserting we were both born anew, and adopted, and those who assert no one has been adopted, because adoption refers only to the redemption of our bodies at Christ's second coming.

    These four verses - Romans 8:15, Romans 8:23, Galatians 4:5, and Ephesians 1:5 - are the only relevant verses. In Romans 8:23, Paul clearly indicates we are waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons. The "as sons" says we are already sons, i.e. children of God by virtue of being born anew, and thus are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, given as a pledge to our inheritance, including the redemption of our bodies.

    From Vines, "God does not "adopt" believers as children; they are begotten as such by His Holy Spirit through faith. "Adoption" is a term involving the dignity of the relationship of believers as sons; it is not a putting into the family by spiritual birth, but a putting into the position of sons. In Rom 8:23 the "adoption" of the believer is set forth as still future, as it there includes the redemption of the body, when the living will be changed and those who have fallen asleep will be raised."
     
    #7 Van, Mar 2, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 2, 2014
  8. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    One of the drivers of the dispute, is how we view the importance of the meaning of words. If a word has no meaning, or no limited range of meanings, then any word can be said to mean this or that. Thus it is claimed the same author in the same letter used the same word to mean two radically different things. Such an approach to scripture makes the person and not scripture the final authority. On the other hand, some students of the Bible believe we should start with the assumption that the same author would use, or would usually use the same word to mean the same thing. Thus Paul, when referring to features of the New Covenant would use the Greek word translated adoption to mean the same thing in each of the four cases. And that meaning would be "given the full benefits of being spiritual children of God" when Christ returns. Those asleep in Christ will be raised, and those living will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.
     
    #8 Van, Mar 2, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 2, 2014
  9. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    As background, for those who have not actually studied adoption, the word is used only by Paul in scripture and so various theologians have invented various meanings for the word to conform to their doctrine. In our world a child automatically turns into an adult at age 18, except for a few items like drinking. In the Roman world, a child had the status of a slave of his natural father until a legal ceremony was conducted in the child's teen years, declaring the child as a son. This "adoption" ceremony was eagerly looked forward to by the child, to receive the full benefits of adulthood. Thus adoption is something that occurs to a natural born son, the exact opposite of many theological assertions by Calvinists.

    Turning now to Paul we who have been born anew, i.e. arisen in Christ a new creation, are in the present a spiritual child of God, but we look forward to our physical resurrection, our adoption, where we will enjoy the full benefits of being a member of God's family.

     
  10. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Galatians 4:5 (NASB)" so that He might redeem those who are under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."

    Some translations read "adoption of sons" indicating that adoption refers to the process of becoming sons, or children of God. But neither "as sons" nor "of sons" is actually in the Greek. The "as sons" was added to the text to indicate that the word translated "adoption" referred to granting the full rights and benefits to natural born children, or in our case to God's children by virtue of being spiritually born into God's family, Christ being the firstborn of many brethren.

    Here is how the NET translates Galatians 4:5 verse, " to redeem those who were under the law, so that we may be adopted as sons with full rights.
     
    #10 Van, Mar 2, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 2, 2014
  11. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Even in this summary you are confused.
    There are a plethora of verses on adoption. The doctrine is not just confined to four verses in the Bible. An in-depth study would involve the dozens of Scripture which speak of adoption in the OT, and how that relates to us in the NT. You haven't even scratched the surface.
    Vine is one source out of hundreds. Why do you think he is the be all and end all of this subject? There is far more to be said on this subject than the opinion Vine has to offer.
     
  12. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,971
    Likes Received:
    371
    Van,

    :wavey: Thank you for bringing me up to speed in the conversation.

    This is how I understand Romans 8:15. Here Paul argues that we are a child of God - we are put in a new relationship with God through Christ. We are adopted as heirs. But this relationship, while inaugurated, has not yet been consummated. As heirs, we are destined for an inheritance. I disagree with Vines as we are not “begotten” but we are joint heirs in Christ through adoption (maintaining the Father, Son, and many brethren relationship). I have a similar view of salvation. By grace we have been saved (Eph 2:8); He is saving us (2 Cor 4:16-18); and He will save us (1 Peter 1:5). Basically, I agree with DHK’s post (and he articulates the view much better than I).
     
  13. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Hi JonC, as you pointed out, I disagree with your view. How did we become heirs, by adoption or being born anew? By being born anew. No verse says we are adopted to become heirs. None, zip.

    Next, you seek to split adoption into two parts, being born anew and being adopted at Christ's second coming. However, if we are born into God's family, we do not need to be adopted to be heirs. So, we must return to the idea that at Christ's second coming we will be granted all the rights and privileges of being God's children, which is our adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

    Begotten is simply an archaic word for being born. You do agree we have been born anew? People who use the KJV, use begotten. Can you get to heaven by adoption? Nope. You must be born anew. Our Lord said that.
     
  14. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Hi DHK, you said I was confused, but did not say why my view was confused.

    There are only four verses where Paul uses the Greek word translated adoption under the New Covenant. I have studied adoption, and for you to claim otherwise is without foundation.

    I have provided numerous sources for my view, and of course, other sources present other views which align with yours.
     
  15. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by( by (241x), through (88x), with (16x), for (58x), for ... sake (47x), therefore (with G5124) (44x), for this cause (with G5124) (14x), because (52x), misc (86x).) whom also he made the worlds; Hebrews 1:2

    Here we have one as he called God in V1, we also have one, called Son.
    The one called he appoints the one called Son as heir of everything that is.
    Heir equaling to at some point in time to take possession of, inherit.

    Son relative to one called God.

    God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:33 What does begotten mean there? What was Jesus before that took place? Dead for one thing. But what about before he died? What then?

    What about? John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Only begotten. Different word for begotten there yet what is there is relative to Son and also relative to God. Does it bind them together in some manner.

    What about? Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”
    and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. fn And he called His name JESUS.

    Did that in bold actually take place? Did a virgin woman actually conceive and give birth to a man child who was fathered by Spirit the God Holy? Did the ovum of this woman begin to divide and divide until this man child was formed and brought forth from her attached to her by an umbilical cord?

    Was this the Son of the living God?

    This man child was conceived (begotten) in this woman by the Holy Spirit, God.

    Are we begotten (conceived) by the Holy Spirit, God through a woman as children of God?

    Are we begotten (conceived) as children of God by the Spirit of adoption through Jesus Christ.

    When Jesus was conceived in the virgin Mary and brought froth from her and named Jesus did he then inherit all things or is that when he became the heir of all things?

    God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:33 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:16-18 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    When did the heir of all things become the inheritor of all things?

    Now we as children of God having been given the Spirit of adoption, begotten, conceived have become because of that Spirit of adoption, joint heirs with Jesus Christ, the declared Son of God with power.
    Jesus, the beginning, first born out of the dead.

    Except a man be born again he cannot inherit, enter, see.

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Heb 1:1,2

    What is man? But now we see not yet all things put under him. (Man)
    But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, (appointed heir of all things) crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. Hebrews 2:8-10
    And being made perfect, he became (the heir inherited) the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Heb 5:9

    Conceived through adoption, will be born as the first born was.

    And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
     
  16. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Hi Percho, rather than make things up, why not stick with scripture. What scripture says we are conceived through adoption? None, Zip, Nada.

    Does God place us spiritually in Christ? Yes, the sanctifying work of the Spirit. Once we have been positionally sanctified, we are made alive together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5. Regenerated, born anew. We arise in Christ a new creation.

    We have been born anew, thus children of God and we are waiting eagerly for our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming, our adoption. We are heirs, not through adoption, but because we have been born anew, thus born into God's family. But we are still clothed in slaves clothing, our tent of flesh; but when Christ comes again, we will be clothed in our glorified body. So just as a young natural born son wears the clothes of a slave, when around age 14, he puts off those garments and puts on the robe, toga, on an adult in their family. Thus we too look forward to our adoption, where we will be given our glorified body.
     
  17. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    You are simply playing word games; semantics.
    Can you get to heaven without being born again? No.
    Can you get to heaven without being justified? No.
    Can you get to heaven without "calling on the name of the Lord." No.
    Can you get to heaven without "faith and repentance toward God." No.

    Adoption is one of the operations that God does when we become children of God. So is sanctification. Your statement becomes irrelevant in that context.
    The new birth and adoption are not the same thing, and I don't know who here is saying they are except for you.
     
  18. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Hi DHK, Adoption refers to our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming. That is what I am saying adoption is. I am saying adoption is not being born anew. That is what I am saying.

    I am saying we do not enter God's family through adoption. That is what I am saying.

    I am saying no saved, justified, sanctified born anew believer has been adopted. That is what I am saying.

    I am saying every saved, justified, sanctified born anew believer is waiting eagerly for our adoption, the redemption of our bodies at Christ's second coming.

    No word games, no obfuscation, just scripturally based truth.
     
  19. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    This statement: "Adoption refers to our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming. That is what I am saying adoption is. I am saying adoption is not being born anew. That is what I am saying."
    is where you go wrong.

    You confine adoption to one and only one aspect. It has more than one aspect. If God hasn't adopted you as His son, then you aren't saved.
    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    Look carefully at the above wording. Those that are saved are "those that believe on his name." The word "power" is the word for "authority" as it is translated in other translations. When one is born again he becomes a child of God. At the same time he is given the authority, that adopted right, as a mature son, that will gain the inheritance so promised in Romans 8.
    As sons, we are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus Christ. We became sons by adoption.
    We became children by the new birth. There is a difference between a child and a (mature) son. Only when the son is mature (in our physical world) does he receive the inheritance. An infant does not receive the inheritance. If his adoptive parents die it is put in trust until he becomes of age. Only a mature son can receive it.
    Rom.8:23 speaks of the resurrection, that which is still future.
    But a child that has trusted Christ, a young person, will still go to heaven when he dies. Spiritually he has been adopted. Ask the testimonies of those on the board. Some here have trusted Christ as early as four and five years old, an age at which, in our earthly society one would never receive their inheritance. But all the saved receive their full inheritance in heaven no matter what their physical age was on earth because they were adopted the moment they were saved.

    If you weren't adopted, then you were not saved. You were not placed as a son into the household of God.

    The following is from the Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia. I found it to be very helpful. It is only a part of the article:
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,093
    Likes Received:
    49
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...