Advent ??

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by SaggyWoman, Nov 11, 2001.

  1. SaggyWoman

    SaggyWoman
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2000
    Messages:
    17,933
    Likes Received:
    8
    Does your Baptist church do anything with "advent"? if so, what? If not, do you have special services or a special time during each service during December to call attention to the coming of the Messiah?
     
  2. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    5,139
    Likes Received:
    25
    No to both questions. We have no "special" Sundays based on the religious calendar.
     
  3. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Messages:
    4,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SaggyWoman:
    Does your Baptist church do anything with "advent"? if so, what? If not, do you have special services or a special time during each service during December to call attention to the coming of the Messiah?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I did at my Lutheran church and I wish we still did. There is nothing wrong with tradition as long as it is biblical. I miss it!!

    UNP, Adam
     
  4. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/cjv.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    Our church follows the church year very closely. Since the theme of Advent is expectation, the texts and liturgy focus on hope and expectation (specifically the second coming). It's also the start of the Church year, and signals a shift to a new set of lectionary texts (which always seems like a breath of fresh air to me as a preacher).

    We use blue paraments during Advent, as many other churches do. Their is some dispute over whether blue or purple is the older tradition in the Church. Personally, I think purple should be reserved for Lent.

    The difference between observing Advent in a baptist (or other "free church") church (as opposed to one with an ecclesiastical hierarchy) is that observance of the seasons of the church year is a voluntary discipline chosen by the congregation as a way to add depth to their worship and build ecumenical relationships.

    Joshua

    P.S. It beats starting to celebrate Christmas in October, as our local malls seem to be doing.

    It also amuses me when people who don't follow the church year sing "The 12 Days of Christmas" since, presumably, they don't even know why they are singing it.

    [ November 11, 2001: Message edited by: Rev. Joshua Villines ]
     
  5. Pennsylvania Jim

    Pennsylvania Jim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2000
    Messages:
    7,693
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Advent" is not a calendar event in our church. However, a few years ago we bagan to follow it loosely as a calendar event in our home, with evening family devotions centered around an "advent wreath" with appropriate readings of scripture and short devotionals.

    I was saved out of a liberal denominational church where advent was followed along with the rest of the "church calendar" in form but with little or no sincere belief. After coming to know Christ in my life I reacted against nearly everything in liberal churches due to their apostasy and unbelief. I think it is common (as in my case) after being saved from these dens of darkness to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so for many years I would not have considered any form of advent activities other than simple Christmas celebrations. I have come to discover that there is much beauty in traditional advent activities once they are removed from the unbelief of many churches where they are commonly practiced, and where sometime long ago they were practiced in spirit and in truth.
     
  6. livin'intheword

    livin'intheword
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2001
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok, might be a ****** question, but what is Advent? :D
     
  7. John Wells

    John Wells
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2001
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Advent means "the arrival of something important or awaited."

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Advent (Latin adventus,"coming"), in the Christian ecclesiastical calendar, a season observed in preparation for Christmas. The earliest authentic record of Advent (AD581) states that the season starts on the feast of St. Martin, November 11; this period is still observed in the Orthodox church. About 600, Pope Gregory I decreed that the season should start on the fourth Sunday before Christmas, but the longer period was observed in England for some years. The shorter period is now observed in the Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, and Episcopal churches, and the first Sunday of Advent is regarded as the commencement of the Christian ecclesiastical year. - Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  8. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Messages:
    4,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why don't Baptist's observe the Christian Calendar year?

    UNP, Adam
     
  9. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/cjv.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    Adam,

    Many baptists do. Some threw the liturgical baby out with the bathwater of rote religion and impersonal piety. In addition, since many baptist clergypeople never go to seminary, many are not familiar with the history and traditions of the church year.

    All of the baptist churches I've been in as an adult have followed the church year.

    Joshua
     
  10. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/cjv.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Wells:
    Advent means "the arrival of something important or awaited."

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Exactly. It is important to note that, although Advent precedes Christmas and incorporates the expectation of the arrival of the Christ-child; it's primary focus is our hope as Christians for the second coming of Christ.

    Joshua
     
  11. Kiffin

    Kiffin
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2001
    Messages:
    2,191
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Church loosely follows the Church year by celebrating Advent, Christmas, Lent and Easter. I can hardly wait for Advent!
     
  12. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Messages:
    4,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think an email to my pastor is in order here. I admit I am surprised that not all pastors have been to seminary. In the Lutheran denomination all pastors had to go through seminary and be ordained.

    I love celebrating advent. For me its the best time of the year when I am closest to my family and friends, and is usually a very refreshing time spiritually.

    UNP, Adam
     
  13. Pennsylvania Jim

    Pennsylvania Jim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2000
    Messages:
    7,693
    Likes Received:
    0
    Adam,

    Many, many Baptist seminaries do not support the use of advent or the church calendar. As stated above I do not wholeheartedly agree with that position. However, Joshua will always try to make it sound like 1) HIS position is by far the majority and 2) anyone who takes another position is an uneducated hick.

    Just a "heads up".
     
  14. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/cjv.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:
    Adam,

    Many, many Baptist seminaries do not support the use of advent or the church calendar. As stated above I do not wholeheartedly agree with that position. However, Joshua will always try to make it sound like 1) HIS position is by far the majority and 2) anyone who takes another position is an uneducated hick.

    Just a "heads up".
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Jim,

    The far, far, far, far majority of Christians do observe Advent. Second, any pastor who is not familiar with Advent is educationally deficient.

    Joshua
     
  15. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    5,139
    Likes Received:
    25
    Joshua, you are correct that a majority of the Christian denominations observe Advent. But I think I am correct to say that a majority of Baptists do not. For the most part, this seems to be a discussion of Baptist practice.

    That a pastor or church does not observe Advent does not necessarily mean they have never heard of it. It may mean they don't believe in observing it (See Old Baptist Quote #1 in Baptist History for an historical comment on Baptists observing days). Second, we are all educationally deficient is some areas. There are certainly a lot of things I don't know (or do I, if I don't know, how do I know I don't know? :D ). Being educationally deficient concerning Advent probably doesn't disqualify a man from preaching, does it? :confused: Surely not in non-formal, non-liturgical churches. [​IMG]
     
  16. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/cjv.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree that not observing Advent does not mean that the pastor is unfamiliar with the practice. Nor do I think actual ignorance of the liturgical year would disqualify someone from preaching, but it would indicate a distressing level of unfamiliarity with the Christian tradition. Since learning about the church year is a basic element of the study of Christian history (roughly on par with learning the books of the Bible for biblical studies), I would wonder what else that person didn't know.

    In my experience, liturgical worship is one of those dividing lines between educated and uneducated clergy. The vast majority of the Alliance of Baptist Churches I know (in fact, all of the ones I've been in) are pastored by clergy with M.Div.'s and are liturgical. Most of the CBF churches I've been in - the same.

    Again, this is my experience, not an empirical study.

    Joshua
     
  17. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    5,139
    Likes Received:
    25
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In my experience, liturgical worship is one of those dividing lines between educated and uneducated clergy. The vast majority of the Alliance of Baptist Churches I know (in fact, all of the ones I've been in) are pastored by clergy with M.Div.'s and are liturgical.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Joshua, I object to your insinuation that education is only a result of receiving a degree, and that liturgical worship has "a leg-up" because it is the type of worship of the enlightened. You may not intend it that way, but it has a definite flavor that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. :eek:

    You know, I've always wondered how the VERY FIRST person/institution that gave a degree became qualified to do so! :D

    I think it is the source of the education rather than the fact of it that turns people toward liturgical or non-liturgical worship.
     
  18. SaggyWoman

    SaggyWoman
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2000
    Messages:
    17,933
    Likes Received:
    8
    I have attended 9 Baptist churches in my life.

    Bethel--No Advent
    Wallace Ave--no advent
    FBC--Advent--more liturgical
    Temple--no Advent
    College Ave--no advent
    FBC--Advent--non-liturgical
    Oakview--no advent
    Calvary--Advent--non-liturgical
    Catawba Heights--Advent--non-liturgical

    By and far, over half did not celebrate. Of the ones that did, only one was "formally" done. The rest--it wasn't. None of the churches followed anything else on the Christian calendar.

    Although, two of the churches I have been in have had Good Friday and/or Maundy Thursday Services, but not every year. Just whatever years we decided to do it.
     
  19. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/cjv.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rlvaughn:


    Joshua, I object to your insinuation that education is only a result of receiving a degree, and that liturgical worship has "a leg-up" because it is the type of worship of the enlightened. You may not intend it that way, but it has a definite flavor that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. :eek:

    You know, I've always wondered how the VERY FIRST person/institution that gave a degree became qualified to do so! :D

    I think it is the source of the education rather than the fact of it that turns people toward liturgical or non-liturgical worship.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Part of the problem with the abbreviated format of a message board is that it's sometimes hard to give full context to statements. Here are my general points:

    - In my experience, churches with seminary-educated pastors are more likely to be liturgical.

    - A pastor who does not know the history and traditions of Advent (whether or not they observe it) is educationally deficient (whether or not that education was received formally).

    - Baptists are free to ordain whom they please, as it should be, but I believe churches should only ordain someone who has a level of knowledge consistent with that of a rigorous M.Div. (regardless of how such knowledge was obtained).

    - You may very well hear my personal bias towards liturgical worship coming out. My real concern isn't so much liturgical (i.e. Charleston baptist tradition) vs. informal (i.e. Sandy Creek baptist tradition) as it is the current trend among baptist churches to distance themselves from the historical worship practices of the Church. I have a particular dislike for the "seeker-sensitive" movement.

    Nevertheless, I apologize for the apparent implications that seminary is the only way to receive an education or that liturgical worship is more enlightened. I meant neither point.

    Joshua
     
  20. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    99% of the ifb churches (MOST with seminary or grad school pastors) are opposed to anything that smacks of "liturgy". Use of the church calendar, vestments, candles, creeds, etc are FOREIGN to Baptist heritage of the past 100 years.

    Lent is something for Lut'rans and Catholics who know nothing of Grace. Advent is a wonderful time of the year, but I'm NOT wearing "blue". :rolleyes:

    But do our ifb Baptist "McChurches" really have a liturgy? Unwritten and denied, but very REAL! :eek:

    Tell me how close this is to YOUR church -

    ~Welcome

    ~Hymn (standing)

    ~Prayer

    ~Hymn (seated)

    ~Scriptures (KJV only)

    ~Hymn

    ~Some larger churches have Choir here, then they can be dismissed and find a seat in the auditorium during the fellowship hymn

    ~Fellowship Hymn (sing 1st verse, then walk around and b.s., then sing last chorus)

    ~Announcements

    ~Offering

    ~Hymn (standing)

    ~Special Music

    ~Sermon (sleeping)

    ~Invitation (hand raising)

    ~Invitation Hymn (standing)

    ~Closing Prayer

    ~Glorification of the Pastor (who guards the door and begs adulation and praise).

    Hard to condemn the Protestant Liturgy when we have our own! Guess I will wear blue for the first Sunday in Advent! :cool:
     

Share This Page

Loading...