Advent ??

Probably many of our "old time" churches (non-affiliated but not fundamentalist) are somewhat a combination of the Charleston and Sandy Creek traditions with a strong preference to the informality and spontaniety of the Sandy Creek tradition. I prefer a format with a rough outline and complete freedom of movement within the parameters. BUT, I too have a VERY strong dislike for the modern 'seeker-sensitive' movement. In my opinion, it is a 'consumer-based' mentality lacking in depth and substance.

But, back to Advent (trying not to lead this thread too far astray) - the ABCUSA site has an interesting link for a common lectionary. Though I stated I believe that the majority of Baptists are non-liturgical, I would assume a majority of the ABCUSA churches are liturgical. Would you not agree, though, that the present move toward liturgical worship in Baptist churches is influenced more by non-Baptist thought rather Baptist thought? I would also expect to find its presence among more ecumenically-minded Baptists rather than the opposite.

 

I really don't see how liturgical worship is incompatible with Baptist thought.

 

Michael, in my opinion, liturgical worship is inconsistent with New Testament worship patterns, and to the extent Baptist thought ought to be Biblical, I would say that in that sense liturgical worship is inconsistent with (what ought to be) Baptist thought. I do not intend to imply that my version of Baptist thought is all the Baptist thought there is. Only that it ought to be!

BUT in context of my post what I had in mind as the source of modern liturgical ideas among the Baptists comes from reading and studying writings of people other than Baptists. These people usually are more ecumenically-minded than than most Baptists in the U.S. have been for the past 200 years, and therefore are more open to ideas from the more liturgical denominations. Or to put it another way, most of these ideas aren't coming from reading Gambrell, Carroll, Leland, Backus, Hassell, Graves, et.al., but rather from leaders and scholars of other denominations. Trying to set aside my opinion of what is right or wrong, I do think this is a correct observation.

And, BTW, I agree with Bob Griffin - many ifb and other separatist type Baptist churches have created their own "liturgy", and follow the same format Sunday after Sunday after Sunday after Sunday after Sunday, with the holiday based sermons for New Year's, Easter, Independence Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc. (and the obligatory anti-Halloween sermon ). To upset the tradition would probably be good enough reason for a church split.

[ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

RLVaughn, I'm inclined to agree with you about the influence of ecumenical scholarship on liturgical baptist congregations. I think in many ways "moderate" baptist seminaries are very intentional about being ecumenical in their scholarship; and I think "moderate" baptist clergy tend to be very ecumenical in their reading and their worship planning.

Joshua

 

I guess what I'm thinking about is, how is liturgical worship non-Baptist, theologically speaking? I don't believe it is.

 

In my opinion, liturgical worship, the formal worship mentioned by Bob Griffin, or fundamentalist worship that is dominated totally by a dictatorial pastor, misses at least some of the point of soul competency, (priesthood of the believer, etc.) that is a Baptist distinctive. What these have in common is a fairly rigid structure that restricts the congregational participation in the service.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rlvaughn:
No to both questions. We have no "special" Sundays based on the religious calendar.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brother Robert - Again I come to you with a question. Does your church also not observe Palm Sunday, Ash Wednesday, nor Easter? I ask because I was quite put out with Lifeway, the SBC's publishing company, for not including ANY mention of these events in last year's Sunday school quarterly. If I understand right, it is these holy days of which we can be reasonably certain of the correct time of year for observance since the Jewish calendar has existed since Moses' time and marks the anniversary of the Passover. It is the timing of Christmas that is left to dispute and we credit Dionysius Exiguus (Dennis the short), the same man who created the B.C./A.D. year system, with picking December 25th for our current celebration date. I hope this is relevant enough for this thread of advent.

- Clint

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Does your church also not observe Palm Sunday, Ash Wednesday, nor Easter? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, we do not officially observe any special days. This does not necessarily mean individual members do not celebrate them. The reasoning being is that we do not understand that the New Testament establishes any "Holy Days", and as far as Easter is concerned - each Sunday is based on and is therefore a celebration of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

For advent we have a "countdown" to Christmas booklet which includes devotions written by members of the congregation using a scripture as a starting point and sharing a story about Christ/Christmas and what it means to you. I like the Liturgy once in a while and quite frankly in my experience, I do not find it "unbaptist"like...oh contrare! Focus on the words which are being said, they glorify Christ.