Adventists Are Sabbath Breakers

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by DrJamesAch, Jul 15, 2013.

  1. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch
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    Whilst the Seventh Day Adventists debate over whether the Christians are wrong about worshiping in church on Sonday or Saturday, and accuse Christians of violating the Sabbath (as well as contend that Sonday observance is the "mark of the beast"), let me emphatically state that as a person raised in Judaism I could give 600 reasons why the Adventists are wrong about the Sabbath and the law, and 39 reasons alone why they are not correctly observing the Sabbath.

    But here I will give just two.

    EXODUS 16:29

    On another thread, I asked an Adventist whether he went to church on Saturday or Sonday. He affirmed (as most any good Adventist would do) that is was Saturday (or 7th day of the week if he chooses not to use the Roman description of the day). This is a violation of the Sabbath.

    "See, for that the Lord hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day." Exodus 16:29

    Leaving ones place on the Sabbath is a clear violation of God's law.

    THE JEWISH CLOCK

    Furthermore, most Seventh Day Adventist churches have EVENING SERVICES that begin after evening time. THE JEWISH CLOCK RUNS FROM SUNSET TO SUNSET, "6PM to 6PM" and thus NO Seventh Day Adventist properly observes the timing of the Sabbath. By attending church on Saturday evening AFTER 6pm, Adventists are actually attending church ON SONDAY for at least one hour or more.

    Paul is clear in Galations 3 that those who wish to adhere to the law are a debtor to the WHOLE LAW. James 2:10 holds that if anyone break the law in just ONE POINT he is guilty OF ALL. The Seventh Day Adventist not only violates the Sabbath by failing to remain in there places on the Sabbath, but in attending evening services that actually begin ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK according to traditional Jewish and Biblical timing.
     
  2. BobRyan

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    The game played above makes Christ a Sabbath breaker and all the Jews that go to the Synagogues before the cross - "Sabbath breakers".

    Playing "games" with the Bible is not the compelling solution that some of those at war with the 4th commandment - seem to have at first imagined.

    Adventists keep Sabbath as the Bible states in Lev 23 "from evening to evening" which is not from 6pm to 6pm.

    in Gen 1 "evening and morning where the first day" is a reference to the actual physical condition of sunset from a certain point of reference on the earth.

    Again this is pretty simple - but if one is simply gaming the text of scripture looking for ways to be at war with the text - these details get "skipped".

    Details matter.

    Particularly when the point is this simple to get.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. DrJamesAch

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    And the fact that Christ DID break the Sabbath should tell you something.

    Apparently you don't know very much about Judaism. Most Jews go to the synagogue or "beyt knesset" 3 times a day, and some 3 times during the week, but they conclude their worship BEFORE 6 PM the evening of the Shabbot. Those who do go after the 6PM would be in violation of the Sabbath.

    Evening and morning have ALWAYS been sunset to sunset. Exod 12:18,Josh 8:29, 2 Chronicles 18:34, Nehemiah 13:19, Mark 1:32.

    Leviticus 23:32 specifically says about the Sabbath:

    " It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath."

    Why do you think they took Jesus down BEFORE EVENING? Matt 27:57-60, Mark 15:42-46, Luke 23, with John 19:31.

    You sir, have been violating the Sabbath for a very long time, not only in failing to observe the proper time but also in leaving your place which is clearly stated in the very chapter you used in another thread to support you theory on present Sabbath observance (Exodus 16).
     
  4. BobRyan

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    The Jews claim that Christ broke the Sabbath - Christ claimed in Matt 5 he did not break even the least requirement of the actual law of God.

    In Mark 7 Christ makes the point that the Jews were "making stuff up" regarding what is law and what is not - even to the point of setting aside the actual commandments of God - and replacing them with their own.

    Some are so bought into that Jewish method of setting aside this or that Commandment of God and replacing it with their own tradition - that they also join the Jews in claiming that Christ was wrong in Matt 5 when he claimed to keep every jot and tittle of the law of God and that Paul is wrong in Gal 4 when he also claimed that Christ was perfect by the standards of the Law "Born under the Law" and perfectly complying with it.

    My claim is that going out that far against the Word of God on what Christ did - should be sign that your traditions are getting in the way of actual scripture.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. BobRyan

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    You appear to be making my case for me at that point.

    Was I supposed to differ with you there??? If so I am confused as to where that would be.

    Help me out with that one please.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. DrJamesAch

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    The Jewish timetable has ALWAYS been from "6pm to 6pm". ALWAYS. It is divided into 2 divisions of 12 hours. This is why you see the "third hour" being referred to in the in Mark 15:35 (see also Acts 2:15 where they are showing they couldn't be drunk seeing it was only the 3rd hour of the day)This would be your 9am. Mark 15:33 shows the 6th hour which would be noon, and Jesus died right after the 9th hour and notice they took his body down before sabbath-v42 "And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath".

    Not only is the 6pm -6pm clearly shown in the Bible, but that has been the tradition of Jews for 4,000 years. The rest of my family who yet remain Jewish STILL practice it and it has always been 6pm-6pm.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    You speak as if you "have the records from Sinai" on 6Pm.

    But then you undercut your own argument by pointing out that the records at Sinai show "from evening until evening" Lev 23.

    What part of this is supposed to make your argument??

    The hours of the day and night regardless of sunrise sunset was simply a convention based on tradition. You cannot eisegete that into the text of scripture as if God was forced to comply with it.

    I think we both know that.

    Again you are going back 2000 years before the cross which is 500 years before Sinai as if you had records on "6pm" from that time.

    Surely you cannot expect us to take you seriously on that one.

    No one is questioning the fact that Jewish tradition upstages the Commandments of God as Christ said in Mark 7 and as we see in their claim that Satan is a "good angel" etc.

    I just don't know why you would expect SDAs to follow their traditions over the Bible.

    The Bible definition of evening comes from Genesis 1. Sunset.

    The reverence to the evening is found in Lev 23 - stating that it is from evening to evening.

    Indeed "Evening and morning" were the first day. Evening is sunset - they took Christ's body down before sunset.

    People who keep the Ten Commandment Sabbath also have a practice of guarding the edges of the Sabbath hours - so technically we stop work shortly before sunset on Friday evening and guard the edges to slightly after sunset on Saturday evening.

    And even though the sun sets late in the summer - we still to this day - as non-Jews - call 8pm "evening" and even 6pm "evening" but not as in the bible definition of it in Gen 1 and Lev 23- it is just a conventional term that negates the complexity of time of year when referring to a specific time during a 24 hour day.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #7 BobRyan, Jul 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2013
  8. DrJamesAch

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    Sunset is the definition of evening, 6pm is the TIME. I just showed you that from the New Testament.

    So if you accuse Christians of changing the Sabbath day, then when did 6pm change?? If Christians changed the day, YOU CHANGED THE TIME.

    And furthermore, even if you were to go by "sunset" the sun sets much earlier in winter time then during the rest of the year, sometimes setting at 5pm, and yet 7DA churches STILL HOLD SERVICES AFTER SUNSET.

    Going by your argument, the clock would have to change in order to keep up with the sunset. In summer time sunset would have to be moved to 8-9 pm, and then in winter time sunset would have to change the time to 5-6 pm. I don't think any nation on the planet would use that kind of "daylight savings time" scheme.

    I was born and raised a Jew in Israel until my teenage years, had my Bar Mitzvah celebration at 13, and left Judaism when I went into the military. So yeah, I'd like to think I do know a little bit about Jewish tradition and what time the Sabbath takes place.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    6pm, 7pm, 8pm is "evening" even by our current standards - but it is not "sunset".

    We keep Sabbath from Sunset to Sunset - which is the Bible definition of evening in Gen 1 and Lev 23.

    It does not get any simpler than that.

    As for traditions of the Jews - I have never questioned their ability to do the Mark 7 thing swapping out the Commandments for tradition. They have proven they can do it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. TCassidy

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    The sabbath, as the rest of the Law, was fulfilled in Christ and we, the saved, have found our sabbath rest in Him. Those who slavishly keep the sabbath seem to be saying they have NOT found their sabbath rest in Christ (Hebrews 4), and that is a very sad. :(
     
  11. BobRyan

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    By contrast the Bible says that "ALL MANKIND" will be worshiping God "From Sabbath to Sabbath" in the New Earth. Isaiah 66:23.

    Also by contrast to TCassidy's statement above - the Baptist Confession of Faith admits to the Bible truth that the 4th commandment begins for all mankind in Gen 2:3 and is still applicable to the saints today -as are all the Ten Commandments .


    http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm#Ch19

    THE LAW OF GOD

    19.1 God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart,1 and a specific precept not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.2 By this he bound him and all his descendants to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience. God promised life on fulfilling it, and threatened death on breaching it, and he endued him with power and ability to keep it.3
    (1) Gen 1:27; Ecc 7:29; Rom 2:12a,14-15
    (2) Gen 2:16-17
    (3) Gen 2:16-17; Rom 10:5; Gal 3:10,12

    19.2 The same law that was first written in the human heart continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall.1 It was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in TEN commandments (written in two tables) the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six our duty to our fellow beings.3
    (1) For the Fourth Commandment: Gen 2:3; Exo 16; Gen 7:4; 8:10,12. For the Fifth Commandment: Gen 37:10. For the Sixth Commandment: Gen 4:3-15. For the Seventh Commandment: Gen 12:17. For the Eighth Commandment: Gen 31:30; 44:8. For the Ninth Commandment: Gen 27:12. For the Tenth Commandment: Gen 6:2; 13:10-11
    (2) Rom 2:12a,14-15
    (3) Exo 32:15-16; 34:4,28; Deu 10:4

    19.3 Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased to give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These were partly concerning worship, and in them Christ was prefigured—his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits.1 They also gave instructions about various moral duties.2 All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of the New Testament, when Jesus Christ abrogated them and took them away, for he was the true Messiah and only law-giver, and was empowered to do this by the Father.3
    (1) Heb 10:1; Col 2:16-17
    (2) 1Co 5:7; 2Co 6:17; Jude 1:23
    (3) Col 2:14,16-17; Eph 2:14-16

    19.4 To the people of Israel he also gave various judicial laws which lapsed when they ceased as a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation,1 but their principles of equity continue to be applicable in modern times.2
    (1) Luk 21:20-24; Act 6:13-14; Heb 9:18-19 with 8:7,13; 9:10; 10:1
    (2) 1Co 5:1; 9:8-10

    19.5 Obedience to the moral law remains forever binding on all, both justified persons and others,1 both in regard to the content of the law, and also to the authority of God the Creator who gave the law.2 Nor does Christ in any way dissolve this law in the Gospel, on the contrary, he strengthens our obligation [to obey the moral law].3
    (1) Mat 19:16-22; Rom 2:14-15; 3:19-20; 6:14; 7:6; 8:3; 1Ti 1:8-11; Rom 13:8-10; 1Co 7:19 with Gal 5:6; 6:15; Eph 4:25-6:4; Jas 2:11-12
    (2) Jas 2:10-11
    (3) Mat 5:17-19; Rom 3:31; 1Co 9:21; Jas 2:8





    ===============


    And C.H. Spurgeon's version of the same document says




    http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm#part19
    . The Law of God - Baptist Confession of Faith: Section 19
    1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

    2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

    3.
    Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

    4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
    5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.



    ==============

    So then C.H. Spurgeon agrees, D.L. Moody agrees, Andy Stanley agrees with what the Baptist Confession of Faith teaches - (and so do many who agree with these men) -

    And of course if we dare quote D.L. Moody on this subject - well then he will get trashed.

    If we dare quote Andy Stanley - well then he will get trashed.

    And I have already quoted C.H. Spurgeon so then it is too late to spare him.

    Oh well...

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    You LOVE to quote from Baptists, yet NONE of them you quoted would see Sabbath day keeping as you do!

    Why not quote Jesus and Apsostles instead? wait, they didn't teach what you espouse!
     
  13. Alcott

    Alcott
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    If orbiting the earth in a spacecraft, is every 7th disappearance of the sun the beginning of a sabbath?
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    NONE of them that you quote agree with you that the jewish Sabbath MUST be kept by Christians in order to be really saved, and kept saved!
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Jesus said that nothing of the law is to be deleted in Matt 5.

    In Matt 5 Jesus said that those who teach others that it is moral to break the Law of God - are dead wrong.

    I thought you knew that - why are you going there?

    Paul said "what matters is KEEPING the Law of God" 1Cor 7:19.

    James said that he who is guilty of one is guilty of all when it comes to the Law of Liberty and the Royal Law

    John said that failure to do so - is a huge problem for the saints in 1John 5:2-4 and 1John 2:3-6.

    I thought you already knew that.

    ---

    The reason I quote the Baptist Confession of Faith - is that you and others here are at war with the very Bible truths IT admits to.

    So even though I am not Baptist and even though I differ with some things in that document - yet STILL it manages to get more Bible doctrine correct than some on this board.

    -----------------

    By contrast the Bible says that "ALL MANKIND" will be worshiping God "From Sabbath to Sabbath" in the New Earth. Isaiah 66:23.

    Also by contrast to TCassidy's statement above - the Baptist Confession of Faith admits to the Bible truth that the 4th commandment begins for all mankind in Gen 2:3 and is still applicable to the saints today -as are all the Ten Commandments .


    http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm#Ch19

    THE LAW OF GOD

    19.1 God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart,1 and a specific precept not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.2 By this he bound him and all his descendants to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience. God promised life on fulfilling it, and threatened death on breaching it, and he endued him with power and ability to keep it.3
    (1) Gen 1:27; Ecc 7:29; Rom 2:12a,14-15
    (2) Gen 2:16-17
    (3) Gen 2:16-17; Rom 10:5; Gal 3:10,12

    19.2 The same law that was first written in the human heart continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall.1 It was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in TEN commandments (written in two tables) the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six our duty to our fellow beings.3
    (1) For the Fourth Commandment: Gen 2:3; Exo 16; Gen 7:4; 8:10,12. For the Fifth Commandment: Gen 37:10. For the Sixth Commandment: Gen 4:3-15. For the Seventh Commandment: Gen 12:17. For the Eighth Commandment: Gen 31:30; 44:8. For the Ninth Commandment: Gen 27:12. For the Tenth Commandment: Gen 6:2; 13:10-11
    (2) Rom 2:12a,14-15
    (3) Exo 32:15-16; 34:4,28; Deu 10:4

    19.3 Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased to give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These were partly concerning worship, and in them Christ was prefigured—his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits.1 They also gave instructions about various moral duties.2 All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of the New Testament, when Jesus Christ abrogated them and took them away, for he was the true Messiah and only law-giver, and was empowered to do this by the Father.3
    (1) Heb 10:1; Col 2:16-17
    (2) 1Co 5:7; 2Co 6:17; Jude 1:23
    (3) Col 2:14,16-17; Eph 2:14-16

    19.4 To the people of Israel he also gave various judicial laws which lapsed when they ceased as a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation,1 but their principles of equity continue to be applicable in modern times.2
    (1) Luk 21:20-24; Act 6:13-14; Heb 9:18-19 with 8:7,13; 9:10; 10:1
    (2) 1Co 5:1; 9:8-10

    19.5 Obedience to the moral law remains forever binding on all, both justified persons and others,1 both in regard to the content of the law, and also to the authority of God the Creator who gave the law.2 Nor does Christ in any way dissolve this law in the Gospel, on the contrary, he strengthens our obligation [to obey the moral law].3
    (1) Mat 19:16-22; Rom 2:14-15; 3:19-20; 6:14; 7:6; 8:3; 1Ti 1:8-11; Rom 13:8-10; 1Co 7:19 with Gal 5:6; 6:15; Eph 4:25-6:4; Jas 2:11-12
    (2) Jas 2:10-11
    (3) Mat 5:17-19; Rom 3:31; 1Co 9:21; Jas 2:8





    ===============


    And C.H. Spurgeon's version of the same document says




    http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm#part19
    . The Law of God - Baptist Confession of Faith: Section 19
    1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

    2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

    3.
    Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

    4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
    5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.



    ==============

    So then C.H. Spurgeon agrees, D.L. Moody agrees, Andy Stanley agrees with what the Baptist Confession of Faith teaches - (and so do many who agree with these men) -

    And of course if we dare quote D.L. Moody on this subject - well then he will get trashed.

    If we dare quote Andy Stanley - well then he will get trashed.

    And I have already quoted C.H. Spurgeon so then it is too late to spare him.
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    jesus said that he came not to abloish the OT :aw, but to fulfill it, and He did in full upon the Cross!

    As paul stated, why become enslaved back under the meager/worldly things and customs again?

    Why do you keep insisting on living under the OT, there was a NT, right?
     
  17. BobRyan

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    And in his life.

    His death pays the debt that the law demands.

    His life perfectly fulfills the law to Love God with all the heart (Deut 6:5) and to "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 - without abolishing one letter of it.

    As Paul stated - why become enslaved to law-breaking and sinning after having been saved. Romans 6:10-23.

    As the Baptist Confession of Faith admits - to keep the Moral Law of God - "The TEN Commandments" is the duty of all saints under the New Covenant.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. DrJamesAch

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    I could care less what the Baptist Confessions say or Spurgeon. I am not a Calvinist so their opinions don't mean very much to me when it comes to my OP.

    Bottom line is you cited Exodus 16 as one of your proof texts and none of the 7DA's follow the whole thing.
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    We NOW under the new Covenant relationship with God walk in the power of the HS indwelling us, and as we abide in Christ, thru prayer, bible study/application, meeting with saints in church/worship etc...

    TAHT is how we fulfill the Law of Christ, by abiding in him and by the presense of HS in us, NOT by keeping the sabbath in order to get saved or kept saved!

    What happen to Christians like me who reject that I nust keep the Jewish Sabbath now? Whay will happen after death to me?
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    I am a calvinist, and do NOT want him to prove his case from Condfessions of faith, but from the Bible!

    Simple request for him...

    ANY verse supporting the Sabbath and Law are still binding upon NT believers just as they were upon Isrealites in OT?
     
    #20 Yeshua1, Jul 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2013

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