After 25 Years a Baptist

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Smoky, Mar 20, 2003.

  1. Smoky

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    Often you see posts where people state that they were baptised as infants or sprinkled or poured by other denominations and then, when they finally come to the truth, agree to be baptised the "scriptural way", by immersion. Here is an interesting link about a pastor, who being a baptist for 25 years, was asked to write a book solidifying immersion as the only possible scriptural method. When he began to study the subject intensively for his book, to his dismay, he found out that he was the one who needed to change his long standing position. I think this link gives a pretty good scriptural justification for sprinkling or pouring: http://truthinheart.com/EarlyOberlinCD/CD/Doctrine/Baptism.htm
     
  2. Abiyah

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    I, like many others, do not have the time or desire
    to sit down and read pages and pages of some
    writer with whom I am fairly sure to agree and far
    less to read the writings of someone with whom I
    am fairly sure not to agree. However, with a very
    brief glance at this excessively long treatise, it
    appears that the writer never considered, as
    usual, what Jews did and do but based his
    suppositions upon the few mentions of baptism
    in the Bible and upon what he and others merely
    think may have been done.

    He also ignores bodies of water on the border of
    Jerusalem and those within the city and the
    surrounding area, called (singularly) mikveh (or
    mikvah).

    Jews do not and did not sprinkle themselves but
    immersed themselves.
     
  3. Smoky

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    Thanks Abiyah, I'm not asking or expecting you or anyone else to read it. However the information you acquired from your "brief glance" is surely indicative of someone who doesn't have much time to study. I passed this link along for people who were interested in acquiring more than just a one sided view about the subject and didn't mind putting a little effort into seeing why other people believe differently.
     
  4. Abiyah

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    8o) I don't mind if you have that opinion of me. 8o)
    Actually, I love to study the Bible and spend many
    hours weekly in pursuit of biblical knowledge and
    also take three classes each week in this pursuit.
    I have also studied this subject specifically and
    did not draw the same conclusions you have.

    Perhaps what I wrote offended you. If it did, I
    sincerely apologize; that certainly was not my
    intention. I was merely stating an opinion just as
    you did. 8o) May the Lord bless you, also, in
    your pursuite of knowledge of His Word.
     
  5. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    Did you hear about the guy who was burried by having dirt sprinkled on his head?

    If anyone wants to read some real baptist scholarship on the subject, I suggest John Gill's Exposition of Mark chapter 7 in which he proves that the Greek word baptizo means immersion. Those who teach that baptizo doesn't mean immersion try to make a case out of Mark 7:4 because the King James translates the word baptizo as "wash" in that place concerning the traditions of the Jews in the "washing" of beds and so forth. John Gill, however, shows that although the KJV may translate the word baptizo as "wash" in this place it still means "immerse" and that in actuality Mark 7:4 strengthens the fact that the word means "immerse," seeing as how the traditional "washings" to which Jesus refers were actually immersions. He, of course, cites rabbinical sources.

    http://www.freegrace.net/gill/Mark/Mark_7.htm

    To see the Hebrew and Greek words in Hebrew/Greek character you will need the OLBHEB and OLBGRK fonts which can be downloaded at
    http://www.fratreslucisbr.hpg.ig.com.br/sociedade/28/olbheb.TTF
    http://www.fratreslucisbr.hpg.ig.com.br/sociedade/28/olbgrk.TTF

    They will need to be placed in C:\Windows\Fonts or C:\Winnt\Fonts\ or wherever fonts go on any other system.

    [ March 21, 2003, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     
  6. tyndale1946

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    I'm a Primitive Baptist... And that is very important because according to the Articles Of Faith Of My Church... We immerse!... Now if i decide that immersion is not the answer and actually sprinkling or pouring is the mode of baptism... Even though I don't believe it is... I can find a church where they use this mode for new believers. We are primitive or original for a reason... And we are firm believers in immersion or baptizo for the new believer... Without immersion or baptizo Primitive Baptist is just a name and means nothing... Baptist History proves nothing else and it is not my opinion but historical fact!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  7. blackbird

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    Brother Glen,

    I'm a Southern Baptist boy--and hang on to total immersion, too! But here's a question maybe you can help me with!

    The word says that the Hebrews were baptised by Moses in the Red Sea--any idea as to how this took place--when? On Pharoah's side of the sea or on God's side?

    I ain't tryin' to be smart ellecky--just wonderin' cause Paul doesn't elaberate.

    Blackbird
     
  8. AITB

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    Blackbird, I'm not trying to be smart-alecky either [​IMG] but I can't find any passage that says Moses baptised the Hebrews in the Red Sea.

    Do you know where it is so I can look it up?

    Helen/AITB
     
  9. Smoky

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    The only ones immersed at this baptism were the Egyptians! If any water was involved at all it had to be either the rain from the cloud or droplets from the wall of water being held back! Either way it was a sprinkling. [​IMG]
     
  10. Smoky

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    The following is a rebutal by a presbyterian scholar showing the error of using post christian talmudism as a means of showing the practices of the Jews during the time of Christ.

    SPRINKLING IS SCRIPTURAL
    A Reply to the Baptist Adamthwaite's "Baptism is Immersion!"
    by Rev. Prof. Dr. Francis Nigel Lee
    (M.A., M.Soc.Sc., Th.D., Ph.D., D.Min., D.Ed., LL.D.)
     
  11. Abiyah

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    8o) Any baptism other than complete immersion
    is legitimate only if one thinks that the act of
    baptism saves.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    The author in the web link feels comfortable contradicting scripture. Notice

    The attempt is made to generalize from Acts 22:16 as though this were the text where the "details" of scripture on the connection between death and resurrection are made. In fact Romans 6:1-5 is the place to "make the case above" if it can be made. And in fact, it can not.

    This red herring approach to the doctrine is "not helpful" or constructive. It is merely time consuming and avoids the salient texts that make the point.

    As for the cognition required when participating in Batpism - Peter makes the point clearly in Acts two - the one who is baptized must first repent.

    In 1Peter 3 - Peter makes the point that the essential spiritual act in the one who is participating in Baptism is "the Appeal to God for a clean conscience" it is not a case of "magic water touching the flesh" as some propose.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Don

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    Leon wrote:
    You violated your own statements here.

    Abiyah has a far deeper insight into the actual practices and beliefs of the Jews, both at the time of the Gospels and now. If you were truly putting a little effort into seeing why other people believe differently than you, you'd pay attention rather than just blow her off.
     
  14. Abiyah

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    Thank youu, Don. 8o)
     
  15. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    This is a very ignorant statement! I believe that baptism saves, as did the Apostle Peter (1 Peter 3:21), yet I also maintain that baptism MUST be by immersion. It would actually make more sense for those who don't believe it saves to say that sprinkling is alright -- "seeing as how it doesn't save, it doesn't really matter how we do it!" This is what shocks me about Baptists - they'll argue all day long that Baptism must be immersion of adults and only immersion of adults, but they don't even believe it saves, so why are they messing with it to begin with? Either take all of the Word of God including Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:21 or throw the whole thing out -- quit playing games!!!

    In the Red Sea the Israelites were completely covered by water - walls of water to the sides and the cloud above them. (1 Cor 10:2)

    PS: The issue of baptism meaning "wash" vs. "immerse" is handled very well by Gill as I pointed out above.
     
  16. Abiyah

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    Sola writes:
    8oD Why, thank you, Sola! 8oD
     
  17. Abiyah

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    I found your statement about me being "very
    ignorant" to be quite humorous last night and had
    not intended to respond to it further. Upon
    morning light, and considering that you call
    yourself "Sola," what is your Scriptural basis for
    saying that baptism may be legitimately done any
    way other than by immersion, since this is the
    subject of the thread?
     
  18. SolaScriptura in 2003

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    I did not say that "baptism may be legitimately done any way other than by immersion." In fact, this is why I called your statment ignorant. Please go re-read (or apparently read for the first time) my post in which I called your statement ignorant and you will see that it was ignorant and why it was ignorant - and why the ignorance continues even till now. If you go read it, it will become quite apparent that I believe baptism IS immersion. The ignorance was/is your stereotyping. If you read my even earlier post you will see that I agree with you about having to look at what the Jews did, for I endorsed Gill's explanation of Mark 7:4 about the Jewish "washings" being "immersions."
     
  19. Abiyah

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    8o)

    Edit:
    I was going to let this go wth just a smile, because
    I find it so astounding that people can so easily
    get on a board like this and call one another "stupid."
    "ignorant," etc. without blinking an eye. But I have
    decided to come back and ask, Sola, does it not
    bother you? Is your conscience that seared? What
    is going on?

    I knew exactly what you had said. I am quite
    capable of reading, having learned at a young
    age. But your reply to me was so astounding to
    me that I was trying to get you to respond to what
    I had said.

    Rather than search people out, if you do not
    understand their intentions, you come here and
    call me "ignorant." This is simply not the
    response of someone who has thought.

    Would I come on a board and call you ignorant?
    No. I am curious why you think you have the right
    to call anyone ignorant.

    I would further ask if you have misunderstood what
    our Lord said when He said not to call someone a
    fool.

    [ March 25, 2003, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
     
  20. SolaScriptura in 2003

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    You said: "Any baptism other than complete immersion is legitimate only if one thinks that the act of baptism saves."

    That statement is pure and unadulterated ignorance aimed at deriding those who believe the truth! Peter said baptism saves, therefore it does! BUT in order to make those who believe Peter look stupid you say "only they would ever be so dumb as to think sprinkling is alright." As if those who don't believe the truth (that baptism saves) will be free from the error of sprinkling by virtue of their being wrong!?! Those who DON'T believe baptism saves would be more lenient! Why should they care whether baptism is immersion or not if they don't think it saves? Those who truly believe it saves by the power of God will be the ones who are very careful to do it correctly.

    PS: I realize that you didn't use the words "dumb" or "stupid" but you implied them in your derogatory satement. So you ask "Would I come on a board and call you ignorant?" You did much worse: you called Peter stupid!

    [ March 25, 2003, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     

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