After the Rapture

The seal put on the 144K comes from earth to Heaven:

Rev 7:2 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw another Angel ascending from the East,
hauing the seale of the liuing God:
and he cried with a loud voice to the foure
Angels to whom it was giuen to hurt the earth and the Sea,

After the 144K are described, the scene is
before the throne (AKA: in heaven):

Rev 7:11 (KJV1611 Edition):
And all the Angels stood round
about the Throne, and about the Elders,
and the foure beasts, and fell before
the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Other scriptures show that right after the
pretribulation rapture, the Lord takes the
Church Age saints to heaven for the
Judgement (Bema) Seat of Christ where
the Church Age Saints (mostly Gentiles but
including millions of Messanic Jews) are given
rewards for the GOOD WORKS they have done on
Earth. Evidently 144k Jewish Virgin Men will be
rewarded with special service to Messiah Yeshua.

The Tribulation Period is God's plan to save a
maximum number of Jews - the 144k are to spread
the word to the Jews.
The Messanic Jews that I've talked to firmly believe
that when the last Gentile that is going to be saved
is saved, then the pretribulation rapture WILL happen.
I think some Gentiles may be saved, but I'm betting
on a sure THING: now is the time for salvation!

 

Thanx, Ed. And AMEN.

 

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
#4 and #5 are measured in time units.

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

 

Your Greek New Testament is wrong. The Textus Receptus says:

εκ της θλιψεως της μεγαλης

For one thing, your "Greek New Testament" (which I suspect is actually an English New Testament that has Strong's Numbers mixed in with it) doesn't seem to know how to decline nouns or adjectives. I doubt you're using a real interlinear or anything like that, or you'd see that A) the word order is different from English, B) the nouns and adjectives are declined in Greek, and C) the definite article that did not get translated in the KJV is present in the Greek regardless of manuscript family.

At any rate, I have bolded the definite article in the bit that I quoted from the TR to demonstrate that, whatever Greek text one uses, the definite article certainly is there. Now, if you're going to argue that the KJV is more correct than the Greek from which it was translated, than there's a whole 'nother issue y'all can discuss.

Michael

 

After reading Michael's reply I went and did something I should have done at the start of this discussion. I went and found an online TR and guess what? In Revelation 7:14 it agrees with the Greek New Testament I have on my bookshelf. Michael is right, the Textus Receptus does contain the definite article in Revelation 7:14. In fact when I compared the two greek texts they were identical in this regard.


I had assumed in good faith that "My Blood Spoke His Name" was actually looking at a version of the TR. Whether from a book version of the TR or from an on-line version of the TR, I assumed "My Blood Spoke His Name" knew that the TR lacked the definite article in Rev. 7:14. I should never have assumed any such thing. That assumption was laziness on my part and, because of that laziness, I lacked an important fact. That important fact, that the TR does contain the definite article in Rev. 7:14, happens to strongly support my case that the Word of God does say "the great tribulation" in Rev. 7:14. From this point forward I will make no more assumptions. I will, to coin the old phrase, trust but carefully verify.

Revelation 7:14 (The definite article is in read)

Westcott/Hort:
"και ειρηκα αυτω κυριε μου συ οιδας και ειπεν μοι ουτοι εισιν οι ερχομενοι εκ της θλιψεως της μεγαλης και επλυναν τας στολας αυτων και ελευκαναν αυτας εν τω αιματι του αρνιου"


Textus Receptus:
"και ειρηκα αυτω κυριε συ οιδας και ειπεν μοι ουτοι εισιν οι ερχομενοι εκ της θλιψεως της μεγαλης και επλυναν τας στολας αυτων και ελευκαναν {VAR1: στολας αυτων } {VAR2: αυτας } εν τω αιματι του αρνιου"

As anyone can clearly see both texts clearly contain the definite article.

 

If HBSMN is looking at a real Greek New Testament, rather than an English one coded with Strong's Numbers, it needs to be thrown away and replaced with one that...well...knows basic Greek.

"Ek megas thlipsis" is horrible Greek. "Thlipsis" is feminine nominative. "Megas" is masculine nominative. Besides that "ek" would require it to be genitive instead of nominative, the gender between the word and adjective needs to match. That is, at worst, we would expect "ek megales thlipseos", but even better would be "ek tes thlipseos tes megales" (I apologize for my bad transliteration, but I can't type in Greek). Incidentally, that's exactly what we find in ALL manuscript families containing this passage.

But no Greek New Testament in the world has "ek megas thlipsis" as a reading; thus, I think it's safe to conclude that HBSMN is not looking at a Greek New Testament, but instead terming his KJV with Strong's Numbers a "Greek New Testament".

So now I'm waiting for the argument that the KJV is more correct than the Greek it translates.

 

A Very Serious Problem

I think a major problem here is that "His Blood Spoke My Name" claimed to be reading from a Greek New Testament.

"Originally Posted by His Blood Spoke My Name
As I said, the Greek New Testament I am reading from says 'ek megas thlipsis' there is no definite article there.

And don't tell me my Greek New Testament is wrong. It is the Received Text that it comes from instead of text based on documents thrown away."


I think that issue needs to be cleared up first. Why would someone claim to be reading from a greek NT when it now seems clear that they were not? When "His Blood Spoke My Name" made the above statement I did not give it a second thought. I assumed this person was indeed reading from a TR greek text. I thought the word order strange but, again, I assumed "His Blood Spoke My Name" was reading from a greek New Testament since they claimed they were reading from a Greek New Testament. Now that I have seen the actual TR greek text I am almost certain "His Blood Spoke My Name" was in fact not reading from a Greek New Testament (contrary to the their claim). There is also Michael's wonderful explanation of the grammer. "His Blood Spoke My Name" needs to explain this very serious problem by answering this question: Why did you claim to be reading from a Greek New Testament when you were not? If you still wish to assert you were reading from a Greek New Testament can you please give us the title/editor (etc) so we can get a copy and examine it for ourselves?

I find it very interesting that "His Blood Spoke My Name" has been silent on this thread, though active in others, since Michael pointed out the problems with their claiming to have been reading from a Greek New Testament.

This is a very serious problem.

 

Well www.blueletterbible.org is a site that I use quite often. While they have the article in the actual Greek that is listed, the verse breakdown does not contain the article, but rather the structure that HBSMN has indicated. However, I'm not sure why the tranlators left out the article, but it is definitely there.

So I am sure that there might be some books or websites as such that would just make a Greek breakdown based on the KJV instead of the original Greek. That would obviously be a mistake, but that could be the answer.

But one not "knowing" Greek wouldn't know any difference.

 

A lot of resources will do something like this:

These3778 are1526 they which came2064 out of1537 great3173 tribulation,2347

Those are Strong's numbers (copied/pasted from my e-Sword KJV with Strong's numbers), and when you look them up in Strong's or Thayer's or any other lexicon, you're going to get "ek megas thlipsis", because they give you the singular, nominative form of the words (and the masculine form in adjectives and pronouns, usually), and it would be in the order of the English, and not give you any words that were in the Greek that were left untranslated.

Michael

 

Yes I think that may be what's at the root of this issue, but maybe not.

 

Maybe not, but HBSMN hasn't been around this thread to answer for himself.

 

Are you reading from a Greek New Testament, or are you using a KJV with Strongs? If it's the latter, then you just lied. Time to start a new 24 hour period of sinlessness. A KJV with Strongs references is not a Greek New Testament. Or maybe you have some special version of a KJV Greek New Testament you bought from one of your pharmacist friends.

 

==If "His Blood Spoke My Name" does not explain his earlier statement, where he claimed to be using a Greek New Testament, soon I am going to start a new thread which cannot be ignored. A very serious problem has been exposed with a statement made in this thread and there needs to be a clear explanation. The only person who can give that explanation is "His Blood Spoke My Name". We await his reply.

 

After the Rapture?
JUDGEMENT!
NOte that judgements #2 and #3 below
come immediately after the Rapture:

---------------------------------


Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goat Nations judgement, Matthew 25:31-46,
2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
WHO: the nations: the living surviver nations of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed nations to Hell; the blessed nations
to the Millennial Messanic KingdomAge

5. Great White Throne judgement
(Revelation 20:11:15)
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

Still waiting for "His Blood Spoke My Name" to clear up the confusion he has caused.

 

Still waiting for somebody to get back ON TOPIC.
HINT: the topic is suggested by the TITLE:

After the Rapture

 

==We are very much on topic. We are discussing Rev. 7:14 and answering the question can anyone be saved after the rapture. Based on Scripture I say yes. "His Blood Spoke My Name" said no and denied that Rev. 7:14 said "the great tribulation". He claimed to have been reading from a Greek New Testament (TR). Now that his claim has been made suspect by the facts of what the TR actually says he has gone silent. He needs to come forward and answer the questions raised about his previous statement.

 

I agree with Martin Rev 7:14 (in the original Greek)
says 'the great tribulation'.
I agree with "His Blood Spoke My Name":
Salvation of Gentile persons will not be probable
in THE TRIBULATION PERIOD Judgement.

Revelation 7:14 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):
I said to him, "Sir, you know." Then he told me:
These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation.
They washed their robes and made them white
in the blood of the Lamb.

These are the Gentiles of the Church Age who came out
of THE GREAT TRIBULATION by being raptured/resurrected
before THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

Just the same way this verse recommends 'come out' of
the Whore Religion: Mystery Babylon the Great, by
LEAVING not by DYING.

Rev 18:4b (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):
Come out of her, My people, so that you
will not share in her sins, or receive any of her plagues.

 

How can you come out of something you have never been in?

 

The Greek NT in front of me does not have the word 'the'. Going through a second electonic NT, it does. That still does nothing to prove that those mentioned in Revelation 7:14 means the great tribulation after the rapture. The does not necessarily mean there is only one of something.

We see 'the tree of life' both in earth, and again, we see it in heaven...Two different trees.

We see 'the great tribulation' in Matthew, and again in Revelation... two different tribulations.

The martyrs recorded by Foxe from Stephen to present, have all gone through great tribulation.

How do I know that those in Revelation 7:14 are not saved during the period after the Rapture. By looking at the other instance of Great Tribulation in the book of Revelation.

According to this verse, those who will go into great tribulation are those who commit adultery with the woman.

Those in 7:14

are coming out of great tribulation.

They are not the ones who are kept 'from great tribulation except they repent of their deeds.'

The tribulations the ones went through in 7:14, are the martyrs down through the ages from the cross to the point of rapture.