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Age of Accountability--Biblical or Mythical??

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Frogman, Oct 9, 2003.

  1. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Psalm 139:12 (ESV)
    even the darkness is not dark to you;
    the night is bright as the day,
    for darkness is as light with you.

    Amplified Bible:
    Psalm 139:12 Even the darkness hides nothing from You, but the night shines as the day; the darkness and the light are both alike to You.

    Psalm 139:12 (KJV)
    Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

    From GH's post: "Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light [are] both alike [to thee]."

    I think you owe her an apology, Frogman. She was quoting the King James Version. The only difference is the KJV places the words in italics that she placed in brackets. [​IMG]

    [ October 12, 2003, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: KenH ]
     
  2. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    She is interpreting that in accordance with an unbiblical view. If I apologize, then I would in essence be denying my own belief. Therefore, I cannot apologize. I said nothing out of the way, nor nothing to damage her, only that what she is posting is her opinion.

    What is really being said in that Ps. Ken? You know what it is. It is not making darkness-which is symbolic of evil, to be the same as light-which is symbolic of purity.

    See Yelsew's post, he said as much concerning this as I could.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  3. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I guess I misunderstood what you meant. I thought you were accusing GH of adding the words in brackets.
     
  4. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    That is ok Ken, I appreciate your guarding my ethics. But you wouldn't apologize to me for telling me my belief is my opinion would ya? I guess what I wrote was probably not as clear after the 'add reply' as it was before--meaning in appearance as opposed to my thoughts.

    If that is the way that post was taken, I didn't mean it as such. Otherwise, I am still in opposition to the belief she is supporting.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  5. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Abiyah;
    Wasn't our lord Bar mitzvahed?
    May God Bless You.
    Mike
     
  6. GH

    GH New Member

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    She is interpreting that in accordance with an unbiblical view.

    Bro. Dallas,

    David is showing God's sovereignty and ominiscence. This is my point and this will always be my point. I maintain that the organized church preaches fear not faith in an all-loving God.

    David also says in this psalm that if he made his bed in hell (sheol) God is with him. That is a most powerful statement to make. It is apparent to me that, like God, David isn't afraid of the dark. It's all about God's ability. Not man's. Perfect love casts out fear. Fear not - for all is of, in, for and through God. That's a biblical statement too, brother.

    I also would like to respond to your statement somewhere above about forever and ever. Do an independent study apart from what you've been taught some time. Just ask for the Holy Spirit's guidance. Go outside the camp and meet Him there. You won't be disappointed.

    You wouldn't believe me anyway - and you shouldn't. But you can believe Him. I know that you know that.

    God bless you richly in your studies of scripture.

    GH
     
  7. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    the verse denotes God knowing everything. wether in light or darkness. (the thoughts, or acts of evil cannot hide)

    the "light is known, as the darkness". combined in totality is the "knowledge of Good and evil"

    do you actually think that God doesnt know what will happen whenever?...wether it be a thought or action of good or evil?.

    and that he has known all this before the foundation of the world..every thought and every action.

    GH was completely correct in her parallel.
    God sees light and darkness as in totality.


    today he teaches man to view them seperately.

    yet in due time man will see both together in totality as tools used in bringing Glory to God our Father


    even as perceiving the human being...
    some as freinds and some as enemies.
    do we love both, or do we as humans sees one as opposed to the other?.

    yet their still both children of Gods creation. they are viewed by him in totality as one.

    as stated previously. God is teaching us to perceive in a state of absolutes. from his vantage point of timelessness. seeing man, at all times of his worth in totality.

    Me2
     
  8. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    To spirit, and God is spirit, light and dark have no meaning because spirit is impervious to both.

    It is only by our human senses that we know there is darkness and light. However, our spirits know good and evil because of Adam and Eve's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Therefore we humans experience both light and darkness, good and evil.

    This is the environment in which God seeks that which was lost. He does it with His Holy Scriptures and when man believes, the Holy Spirit regenerates man and illuminates the truth for man that enables life long faith in God. God did it all, man accepts or rejects.
     
  9. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Yelsew,


    Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    faith is "hoping in substance not seen becoming a reality".
    faith is "hoping in evidence materializing from one realm to another".

    faith is hope in the unseen evidence becoming seen.

    if the communication between the Holy spirit and the spirit of Jesus within man transfers "truth".

    truth is wisdom without evidence.
    "faith without works"

    if God states truth as reality. and reality is yet unseen. (faith without works)

    then faith is hope in this wisdom that lacks evidence. becoming a reality. (faith with works)

    it is faith as hope of this wisdom with its unseen evidence becoming seen.

    faith no longer being faith without works. or faith with works is no longer faith.
    faith plus works equals "reality".


    man cannot hope in the evidence becoming a reality, but man can hope in the power of God creating this evidence to become a reality.

    man does not hope in evidence becoming a reality. man hopes in the power of God being manifested by bringing into reality. the evidence unseen..

    man cannot bring into reality anything spiritual based on his own intellect or rational.
    man can only allow God to communicate to our spirit and bringing into reality the evidence unseen to transform "hope" of truth into reality.


    Me2
     
  10. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Yelsew,

    as in reading the bible and thinking that we can receive revelation of God while we read the bible.

    God doesnt works that way. He teaches us. He speaks to our spirit. He proves the wisdom of what the communication is about. from the unseen evidence to the seen evidence.

    it is true if we have the Holy spirit assisting us as we read the bible that he can interpet what the enigmatic statement spoken of into something we can relate to.
    yet we have to have been taught first. been shown evidence that what was taught is a reality and then while reading the bible we can see others who have had parallel experiences or parallel understandings of truths of God. it will not be a new revelation. but perhaps a different way of viewing the same truth from the evidence shown them in their lives.

    we are not taught of men. we are taught first of God. his spirit speaks to our spirit. then he will prove what was communicated into a reality with the addition of seen evidence.

    faith or hope of evidence unseen, becoming seen.

    youve posted that faith comes by hearing and hearing the "word" of God.
    the holy spirit is teaching us the "knowledge of Good and evil"
    ..that is the "word". the Holy spirit speaks to our spirit. it is our spirit "that hears". and we through any physical manifestation can not detect or comprehend this "communication".

    Me2
     
  11. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Me2,
    You are wrong in your interpretation of Hebrews 11:1

    Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. You said,
    NO, Me2, Faith is "the substance of that which is hoped for", "the evidence of things not seen".

    "Things hoped for" does not have to be something heavenly or spiritual. They can be a lower golf score, a higher bowling score, a faster speed, a passing grade on an exam, etc. Things hoped for can be anything that man can hope will come to him. When one has faith in Jesus, one hopes that what one has heard of Jesus is true and that the promises made by Jesus will come to him.

    "The evidence of things not seen" is the outward conduct of one's life who has hope in that which is unseen. When Tiger Wood was younger, he had faith that he would become a great golfer, because he was not one when younger. The evidence of his hope is that he faithfully and diligently practiced, sharpening his skills learning the techniques that would result in his being known as the greatest Golfer of our time.

    CHRISTIAN FAITH IS COMPRISED OF HOPING FOR THAT WHICH WE DO NOT YET HAVE, AND LIVING OUR LIVES AS IF WE ALREADY HAVE IT.
     
  12. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Me2,
    Me2, Again you are quite simply WRONG about this. Why do you think we have books by the millions? It is because man has the inherent ability "to learn by reading".

    What is learning if not "seeing" the ideas, concepts, "promises", etc. that someone else has put into words, published in the form of books, so that those ideas, concepts, promises, etc. can be communicated to a "wider audience"? Why do you read books if not to learn? Why do you read the bible if not to learn of God?

    If one merely reads the bible without applying the things learned from it, one is spinning their wheels. However, if one applies the principles "learned" from the printed bible, then the spiritual truth of the principle learned and being applied, is revealed unto the reader. The more of the bible one reads and applies to his own life, the greater the revealed truth of God becomes. The more one applies the teachings of the Christ to one's own life the more Christlike one becomes. That is a simple principle that far too many Christians ignore.

    The power of God is revealed to man through the scriptures. If you do not know that then I suspect the reason you carry a bible is so you can "thump them infidels over the head with it".

    It is true that the Holy Spirit assists us in our understanding of the bible. However, if we do not take the initiative to open the bible for our own edification, the Holy Spirit will not open it for us, nor reveal any truth from it to us. The unbeliever can read the bible and thereby get essential principles from it. The unbeliever can discover from the bible that "all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God", thus establishing in the mind of the reader, a need to be saved from sin. The unbeliever can read the discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus and realize that by believing in Jesus man can have everlasting life, thus establishing in the unbeliever the methodology by which man can be saved. It follows that all the principles of Christianity can be "discovered" by the unbeliever simply by reading the bible. It is when man has the basics in his mind that the Holy Spirit sheds Holy Light on those principles for the reader, and reveals to man his true condition, and brings to the man the need to cry out ABBA FATHER Save me!

    Again, you are wrong. You are right in that man allows God to communicate to our spirit, but you are wrong about transformation. That which is hoped for, remains hoped for until it is reality. Eternal life hoped for "is reality" in man so long as man has faith, "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". It is man's faith that causes him to pass from death, "the first death" into life. Those who do not have faith when passing through the first death face "the second death" which is being judged and cast into the lake of fire. If man, for whatever reason allows his faith to die before his natural life dies, he will be judged and will experience the second death. Scripture says so! That is why the substance of things hoped for must not be allowed by the man to die.

    Bring up a child in the way he should go, and he will not soon depart from it. Is that not being taught of men? Me2, the process of coming to faith and remaining in faith is a life long adventure. One in which men teach other men about God. When that teaching results in one believing there is a God, and asks God to come into his life, then God works on the new believer and bringing him to the salvation sanctification of perfect faith in God. Faith sanctifies men! Those with it are sanctified into eternal life, those without it are cast away into the lake of fire.

    The Holy Spirit works on the willing mind of man, regenerating it by bringing forth the truth of God within the life of man. Those who are unwilling do not receive the Holy Spirit, and therefore do not respond to the Holy Spirit, thus remaining unregenerate. Belief, which is regeneration unto willingness, must take place before the Holy Spirit "teaches us anything".
     
  13. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Yelsew,


    based on what evidence, that it will be fulfilled?

    this is the ole "name it, claim it" teachings.

    many people are trapped into false teaching through their own greed.

    1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
    1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
    1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

    (I guess a better Golf score didnt really help tiger save more souls..huh?)


    some folks read something in the bible. and say "hey God, I want some of that". "gimme, gimme, my names jimmy".

    yeah more love..love, love, love

    in most cases what man asks God for, man will refuse to receive what he doesnt want or expect!

    like loving, or forgiving their enemies!..

    and then refuse what God wants to give them...the truth.

    Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    proving all along that what they though was "faith" in hoping that God will givem something good.. was just plain ole greed.

    Me2
     
  14. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Yelsew,

    any "unbeliever" who acknowledges sin being against God is being told these "truths" by the indwelling spirit.

    "there already saved"

    we sense many things that we cant identify.

    God speaks to our spirit. we recognize spiritual truth by evidence. and then our mind is allowed to describe towards what is occurring.

    did you ever wonder how YOU RECEIVED PROOF that Jesus was risen "from the dead".?

    was it personal "revelation" or did you trust what is written in a book of what "eye witnesses" have seen?.

    the real witness is,.. THE very spirit within you.
    he was there.

    It is his eyes that your looking through.
    putting on the "mind of christ" is just that.
    you take on his memories. the proof.

    Me2
     
  15. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Let's dissect Hebrews 11:1.

    Faith is the substance of things hoped for. Like my illustration of Tiger Wood. Being 'The greatest Golfer in the world' was the substance of what Tiger hoped for.

    Faith is the evidence of things not seen. Again, Like the Tiger Wood illustration, the evidence of that unseen hope is the way that Tiger Wood's life was guided coupled with the work that Tiger did to achieve his hoped for goal.

    "The substance" is what is hoped for, "the evidence" is the way one lives life until that which is hoped for is realized. Once the substance is achieved or acquired, there is no longer a need for faith!

    Faith "IS THE EVIDENCE" of things unseen. Meaning that no one can "see" the object of another's faith! BUT the way one lives life provides the evidence of the object of faith. Christians live "separated lives" because of what they hope for, and that is the evidence of the hope.

    This is not "name it and claim it", this is what the author of Hebrews was communicating. It is also the true meaning of Christian faith!

    The Substance of Christian faith is the hoped for realization that the Promises the Christ left with us become a reality through fulfillment!
    The Evidence of the Christian faith is the manner of Living life in anticipation that what is hoped for is realized. Once the promise is fulfilled, the need for faith no longer exists!


    Any other definition of FAITH is simply bogus!
     
  16. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Until I realized that what I was reading in the scriptures was the eye-witness accounts of those who were there, and that there is evidence that over 400 eye-witnesses saw the living, resurrected Christ, I did not believe that a resurrection had taken place.

    Was that a revelation directly from the Holy Spirit? In a sense, Yes, for the Holy Spirit is the one who has preserved the Scriptures for me to "see" too, through the eyes of other men that Jesus had in truth resurrected from the dead. But IT was the words on paper that revealed the truth. The Holy Spirit confirmed the truth once it was revealed to me.

    Your mythology does not impress me, Me2. But the word of God does impress me!
     
  17. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
    2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
    2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    depends on "who's faith" were talking about.

    if its being believed and held by the "spirit of christ within us", I Agree.

    if one cannot declare of being indwelt with the spirit of christ within them.

    then its bogus.


    the philosphies of this world come in many shapes and sizes. many are based around the Christian God.
    yet the bedrock of any christian is the power of the spirit that dwells within man.

    The righteous spirit of Christ within OUR Flesh.
    his faith. His proof. His rest. His power

    the difference.

    Me2
     
  18. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Me2,
    You are groping for support for your position.

    The scriptures you posted have nothing to do with the definition of FAITH! They are, instead, "EVIDENCE" of FAITH in GOD, or EVIDENCE of a LACK of FAITH in GOD.

    The spirit that Confesseth that Jesus is God in the form of man is of God. That is EVIDENCE that one HAS FAITH in GOD my friend. He who confesseth NOT that Jesus is God in the form of man is not of GOD! That is EVIDENCE of a LACK of FAITH in GOD!

    If you have been following my posts, you will note that I often declare loudly that Jesus IS GOD!

    NOW get your facts straight, otherwise you are professing mythology!
     
  19. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Groping ?

    You have misinterpreted these simple statements.
    (1 john 4:2-3) (2 john 1:7-9)

    well how about some more weight of truth:

    Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
    Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

    (perhaps this mystery is still hidden from you?)

    now for evidentiary proof:

    tell me now. has jesus been seen (and identified) within the last (-+) 2000 years on planet earth.
    identified by anybody?
    surely not by your eyes nor mine.

    the evidence of the existence of a man who claims to be God, namely, "Jesus christ" for (-+) 2000 years has not been seen by the human eye. wether alive or resurrected.

    get my point. believers who have since believed in the "existence" of this man called jesus requires proof of existence. the proof can only come in the form of a spiritual "revelation".
    the proof is that God the father has given us THIS spirit as a replacement for our cursed carnal spirit which was destined for destruction.
    the spirit within us witnesses to this by yearning to be acceptable before him.
    to follow his will..as some have proven even to their very own physical death.

    The spirit of Jesus continues to do the will of the father. as the spirit within us as men in this flesh are being revealed unto this "reality".

    its a simple thing to accept "this new spirit within us". unless you cant look past the miracle of God of how it happens.

    there is no other access to God. either the new spirit is "within you", or it is not.

    thats the correct interpretation when your bible states Jesus christ has come in THE Flesh...

    IN OUR FLESH.

    oh yeah..that IS "the doctrine of Christ".

    2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
    2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:
    2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


    now back to the "age of accountability". everyone is born with a cursed spirit. God comes to man and imparts a new spirit to invite the person to Grow into a working son of God, within Gods family. if all are under this curse. if only a selective group are chosen to be "the bride" who lives by an experiential faith in this world of sin.

    no one is born with a righteous spirit (except one) and at some given age has it exchanged to unrighteous. even with the possibility of later becoming a member of "the bride" creating another exchange back to a righteous spirit. see the complexities

    were all placed "into death" from our physical birth.
    were all placed "into life" at our physical death.

    "universal reconciliation" is grace being realized fully for everyone. in due time.

    Me2
     
  20. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Then how would you interpret Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'?
     
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