Age of Accountability

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jim1999, May 16, 2011.

  1. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    In another discussion it was said that all children are innocent of sin and hence saved.

    I would like to know just when Adamic inheritance, including sin, actually takes place before that child falls from grace and becomes a lost sinner.

    Is it two years, three or five.

    Romans 9: 11 " For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth."

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  2. revmwc

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    Genesis 3:

    7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

    8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

    9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

    10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

    11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

    12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

    Verse 7 says their eyes were opened they knew they were naked and they knew that had violated God's command.

    When a child reaches the point of knowing they are a sinners and know they have violated God's will and need a saviour they are accountable. One must know they have sinned to admit they have sinned. Therefore until someone comes to that point they are covered by Grace. Still sinners, still have a sin nature but not accountable because they don't realize their sin.
     
  3. JesusFan

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    My understanding is that in Cross of Christ, God has atoned for/payment was provided to Him to cover sins of ALL those who have not yet realised are sinners, not personal accountibility to God yet as they do know yet iare gulity before God... Also believe same applies to mentally challenged persons who from birth were "different" not able to know right from wrong...

    SOME take this and apply the concept also to have God cover the "ignorance" of those who never heard about Jesus...

    I do think the principle applies to Children and those who are mentally not able to comprehend, but do not think applies to adults, as they have witness of Creation, and God WILL be able to apply His saving grace towards His elect regardless where they are at in World, by providing Gospel thru letter/tract/radio/tv/missionary etc...!
     
  4. Winman

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    What we know surely makes a difference.

    Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required; and to whom men have committed much, of him will they ask the more.

    Those who have knowledge are more accountable and shall receive a more severe punishment.

    Those who have no knowledge but COMMIT things worthy of stripes will receive a lesser punishment.

    Now, we know Esau and Jacob had done neither good or evil in Rebecca's womb. Neither could they know good from evil. How could they then be punished when they had neither knowledge or committed evil?

    But also, if a totally depraved man cannot possibly understand spiritual matters, how could he receive many stripes? Only those who know and understand God's will shall receive many stripes.

    So, these verses argue against both Original Sin and Total Depravity.

    If what factors into a man's punishment is both knowledge and actual evil acts a person has committed, a newborn child could not be worthy of stripes.

    But also, if an unregenerate man can have no knowledge of spiritual matters, he could only receive few stripes.

    To me this argues the unregenerate can know and understand a great deal more of God's will than some acknowledge. It also argues they can perform it.

    This must be so, as these verses are clearly describing the lost.
     
    #4 Winman, May 16, 2011
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  5. revmwc

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    The part in bold contradicts scripture and the apostle Paul verse 14 is clear,

    1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
     
  6. percho

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    For the wages of sin death; but the gift of God eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    The gift is received through inheritance. We are currently heirs.

    From Luke:
    what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
    eternal life
    And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
    eternal life = enter the kingdom of God
    And they that heard [it] said, Who then can be saved?
    eternal life = enter the kingdom of God = be saved
    Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

    eternal life = enter the kingdom of God = be saved = the world (age) to come,life everlasting

    Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;

    But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world,(age) and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: (eternal life,life everlasting) for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (born by the resurrection as sons of God)

    1 minute or 120 years neither matters one must be born again by resurrection into the kingdom of God.
     
  7. revmwc

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    So you believe a baby that cannot call on the name of the Lord will go to hell? Is that what you are saying, if they breathe and become a living soul for just one minute they go to hell, is that your position?

    That view goes against scripture,

    2 Samuel 12:21Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.

    22And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

    23But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me
    verse 23 David said he would go to the dead child, he meant in eternity.
     
    #7 revmwc, May 16, 2011
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  8. Winman

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    Then how do you explain what Jesus said?

    Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

    This person KNEW God's will. If the unregenerate cannot understand spiritual matters, then how could this person know God's will?

    If this was a regenerate person, then Jesus would have been saying a regenerate person will receive MANY stripes, while in the next verse he says those who KNEW NOT shall receive FEW stripes.

    Does that make sense? Will the regenerate who have the Holy Spirit and understand God's will receive many stripes while the unregenerate, totally depraved who "knew not" his lord's will receive few stripes?

    Explain this to me. Don't just quote scripture, anybody can do that. Explain it to me in your own words please.
     
  9. Jim1999

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    Ephesians 1:4...."According as He hath chosen us in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world.........having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good will of Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will........

    Psalm 58: "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies...."

    The churches down through history believed and taught original sin, and hence they bent the meaning of baptism to include 9 day old infants to rid them of original sin. The Reformation altered the meaning of baptism to be a covenant that the infant would be raised in the faith.

    To deny original sin through Adam to all humanity, is to deny the very essence of scripture.

    ON man's will, we adopt the Permissive Will of God under God's absolute sovereignty. Man's will, however, is governed by his fallen nature, and God will intervene, at His pleasure, as He did with Jonah.

    An infant can and does show evidences of rebellion at a very early age, and this includes the sin of lying, even if the lie is to guard himself from parental punshment. The scripture says that "no liar shall enter heaven."

    So, if the infant is "saved"..the only way to enter heaven...when does he lose his salvation to become responsible?

    Man is dead in his sins and trespasses. I have yet to hear a corpse speak!!!!!

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  10. JesusFan

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    The death of Christ provided the means to God to "forbear/overlook" the acts of the sin nature in children, once sin is commited by violation, knowing right from wrong, than in order for God to forgive they MUST receive jesus as their Sin Bearer/saviour!
     
  11. Winman

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    Have you ever known a newborn baby that could even speak? Could they intentionally lie? How can a baby who cannot form real thoughts lie? So, this verse is obvious hyperbole. And look at the next verse:

    Psa 58:4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

    So, do you believe babies are poisonous like a serpent? That sure would make breast-feeding dangerous don't you think?

    This shows how people err when they take a verse of scripture that is obvious exagerration and form doctrine around it. You should be going around warning people about being bitten by a newborn child, as they are poisonous.

    And what are they going astray from? Nearly all scripture that describes us as sinners say we have "gone astray". If you are born evil and go astray, do you go toward good? We are described like sheep and have gone astray and become lost. How do you go astray from the flock unless you were first in the flock. Folks overlook the obvious.

    No, many early church fathers did not hold to original sin. It was Augustine primarily that promoted this doctrine.

    I do not deny that something happened to man in the garden, only I believe what the scriptures say, not Augustine or Calvin. God cursed the ground and said Adam would return to the dust. The scriptures say we are dust, and so we return to the ground as well. This is why we physically die.

    The scriptures also say man became as God to know good and evil. This cannot be evil, as God said man has become "as one of us".

    Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    If knowing good and evil is evil, then God is evil, because God himself said man is become as one of us to know good and evil.

    Calvinism denies that man knows good, but the scriptures say he does. I am not saying that man is good, no man is 100% good. But no man is 100% evil either. Even after Adam and Eve the scriptures confirm that man is made in the image of God.

    Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

    Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

    This is after the "fall" and the scriptures continue to say we are made in the image or after the similitude of God. Yet you say man is utterly evil.

    Man could now discern between good and evil and became responsible when he did wrong. Before this they were like little children who have no self awareness and can run around naked without being ashamed. Little children are not aware when they do wrong such as take a toy from a sibling. Because they cannot understand right from wrong they are not accountable, neither are mentally handicapped people or the truly insane.

    I believe that Adam and Eve aquired this knowledge when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I do believe this is passed down to us. A newborn child has the seed of this knowledge, but cannot understand right from wrong for some time. But in time this ability matures and the child becomes aware of what is right and wrong. When this ability matures to a degree where the child can understand his responsibility before God, if he willfully sins he spiritually dies. There are many scriptures to support this (Deut 1:39, Isa 7:6, Jon 4:11, Ecc 7:29)

    It is obvious God permits some sin, otherwise he would have destroyed us all. But I completely disagree that a man is an utter slave to his nature, otherwise God could not justly demand that we do good. That would be like demanding a blind man see, and then punishing him forever for his inability.

    I agree children can do wrong, but not a newborn. The scriptures clearly tell us that Esau and Jacob had done neither good or evil in their mother's womb.

    The infant is neither saved nor lost. He has done neither good nor evil. He still needs Jesus as his physical body is under the curse, and he still needs Jesus's righteousness imputed to him.

    And yet we see the rich man in hell holding a conversation with Abraham. He could see, hear, speak, feel torment and thirst, he worried about his living brothers. Quite extraordinary for a corpse, don't you think?

    We also have devils who are spiritually dead holding conversations with Jesus, and even OBEYING him when he cast them out.
     
    #11 Winman, May 16, 2011
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  12. Earth Wind and Fire

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    When Jim says dead in sins & trespasses, I believe he means the guy is morally bankrupt & just insensitive to any Godly calling. Can hear others....well yes but will he listen, especially to anything that will convert him....a negative. Think of all the dead people you know or have known in life, will they listen to anyone tell them about Christ....I think if your honest you'd say absolutely not. Only God can throw that switch.
     
  13. revmwc

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    So lets look at this is doulos a slave, of the lord which kurios, Lord, si or master. The servent here has he been saved and is now out of fellowship not doing the will of the father. What happens to the servant the believer out of fellowship. He is chastened the more he knows to do for the Lord the worse the chastening. Understand in the bible the word stripes is in italics meaning added for clarity. The verse would stop shall be beaten with many.

    The servant who is a babe and sins is chastened less. He will receive less of a chastening to get him to come back into fellowship. These are servants of the Lord, that means they are regenerate people saved people who are chastened in time not eternity. They are not unsaved or lost folks.

    How often do we as believers get out of line and get chastened. Those He loves He chastens we are told. This parable was taught to the disciples who with the exception of Juds were saved. The more knowledge of God's will we have the more He requires of us.

    If I know Christ is returning and I do, I need to prepare for my future home by doing God's will, building rewards. The less I do His will the fewer rewards I have. My chastening is here on earth, but if I don't do His will I will receive wood hay and stubble. You asked me to answer without scripture and I have. I also used no commentaries except a concordance and a greek dictionary. Not sure how others interpret it and this is how the Holy Spirit laid it on my heart.
     
    #13 revmwc, May 16, 2011
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  14. allinall

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    I believe that all children are innocent before God due to their ignorance of good and evil.

    It was Adam and Eve's receiving of the knowledge of good and evil that made them accountable for their sin before God. In one fell swoop, they not only sinned, but made themselves accountable for that sin. God, being holy had to separate himself from them.

    God calls children innocent, not knowing their right from their left. The idea is that they cannot yet comprehend these things that God has already sewn into their hearts that will one day make them accountable before Him. All sin is rooted in a willful rebellion against God. Until a person can comprehend what God has sewn into his heart, he is innocent. That's why I also believe that some mentally handicapped adults are also considered innocent.

    Jewish tradition taught something similar, for what it's worth. Only they believed that it was an age of accountability at thirteen years old, not a condition of accountability. Bar-mitz vah, (I'm not sure if the spelling is right), means "Son of the Law". In other words, they became accountable at thirteen and needed a saving faith from that point forward.

    When we reach that condition? It's probably different for everyone.

    Macarthur did some great work on this subject. "The salvation of babies who die", parts 1 and 2
     
    #14 allinall, May 16, 2011
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  15. percho

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    I do not see hell anywhere in my post. This certain ruler wasn't the worst of people. As a matter of fact he said he had been obedient to the law from his youth until the present time he was speaking with Jesus. In this account in Mark it is then said Jesus beholding him loved him and told him about giving up all. And the man left. How does the man that wrote this know that Jesus loved him by inspiration or maybe later in his life Jesus called the young man and it was Mark. Jesus then made this statement, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." See the response of the disciples, And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

    Who were the guilty parties in the David and Bathsheba story. Did the baby that was born to them have anything to do with his birth? Why did the the baby die? You also had nothing to do with your birth from your mother and father and neither will you have anything to do with your being born of the Spirit.

    Who then can be saved?

    And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

    Nothing you do will have anything to do with your Spiritual birth nor a 120 year old man nor a one day old baby.
     
  16. Winman

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    I very much appreciate you answering in your own words. But vs. 46 tells us this man was an unbeliever.

    Lu 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour he is not aware, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
     
    #16 Winman, May 16, 2011
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  17. revmwc

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    I asked what you meant by the post.
     
  18. revmwc

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    The word for unbeliever in the greek is apeitheo correction apistos, the disobedient or to disbelieve. Those believers who are carnal are disobedient even like those who disbelieve. What is the portion of the disobedient in heaven? Wood, hay and stubble. He will receive his portion as those of the disobedient believer. The same word is used for believer marrying the unbeliever so it can be used as an unbeliever. But it is also translated the disobedient as a disobedient servant. The R.V. renders it unfaithful in Luke 12:26.
     
    #18 revmwc, May 16, 2011
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  19. Winman

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    This is the same word used in 1 Cor 6:6, 1 Cor 14:23, and 2 Cor 6:14, all of which are speaking of true unbelievers.

    Is the Lord going to cut believers asunder?
     
  20. revmwc

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    Cut in sunder dichotomeo, or two parts, the dictionary I have defines it here in Luke 12:46 as possibly being figuratively as a scourging would because the disobedient one is still surviving. Again the figure is that the believer who has been away when the Lord returns has no rewards but wood, hay and stubble. The servant of the Lord is the one we are looking at, very, very seldom is an unbeliever ever refered to as a servant a doulos the bondservant This is the same word used of the Lord as servent, the same as Paul as a servant and as servants of God.
     

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