"all have sinned"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by webdog, Jan 17, 2011.

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  1. webdog

    webdog
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    "All have sinned and fall short of God's glory"
    Most on this board will say that this verse qualifies everyone as being sinners from conception. "all is all"

    "whosoever believes in Him..."
    The majority of the above crowd will say that the whosoever's here are qualified by "believes in Him", meaning it's not who out of everyone.

    Why does "believes in Him" qualify the whosoever's...but the "have sinned and fall short of God's glofy" do not qualify the "all"?
     
    #1 webdog, Jan 17, 2011
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  2. David Lamb

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    I dont understand. Surely "have sinned and fall short of God's glory" does qualify the "all". And "believes in Him" does qualify "Whoever".

    In other words, everyone, without exception, has sinned and falls short of God's glory. But it is not true that everyone, without exception, believes in the Lord Jesus Christ. Whoever does has everlasting life.
     
  3. R. Lawson

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    All only means all when I want it to mean all.
     
  4. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Or as the southerners like to use "Yall"

    Strange expression...kind of like "Fixin ta":tongue3:
     
  5. The Archangel

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    I don't think I understand what you're driving at here. Can you explain further?

    The Archangel
     
  6. R. Lawson

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    Angel,

    Calvinists believe that "all" (Gk. pas) does not always mean all but "many."

    I agree somewhat with Calvinists on this, but on very rare occasions. :type:
     
  7. Winman

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    Yes, this seems to be the method Calvinists employ.

    What about Romans 5:18?

    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life.

    I would be interested in how Cals/DoGs explain this verse.
     
  8. webdog

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    I tried to make it as clear as I could, I see I failed :)

    It is stated in John 3:16 that the whosoever's are only those who believe...that it is qualified by "whosoever believes in Him".

    Romans 3:23 states "all have sinned...". It is said that all here is everyone without exception, yet it is also qualified by 'have sinned' which is past tense meaning the "all" here must be those who have committed sin (past tense).

    How can this be used to prove the newly conceived and infants who have not sinned are part of this "all"?
     
  9. Winman

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    Yes, originally I was going to ask how a person can be born a sinner, as sin is something you do. No one is born a bank robber, you must actually rob a bank to be a bank robber.

    You are correct Webdog, perhaps this "all" is qualified.
     
  10. Robert Snow

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    Or when Calvin says it means "all." :tongue3:
     
  11. glfredrick

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    So, according to this, the surest route to heaven would be to kill babies at birth.

    Wonder how God would respond to that sort of nonesense? :BangHead:
     
  12. Winman

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    Pharaoh killed babies when Moses was born, Herod killed babies when Jesus was born. Today, millions of babies are being killed every year. Be ready.
     
  13. Iconoclast

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    Excellent post. This answers it very simply'


    WDog, all humans died in Adam....they sinned in him.
     
  14. glfredrick

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    Huh?

    I'm thinking that it may be time for you to visit with your pastor.
     
  15. zrs6v4

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    Either Paul means:

    1. everyone is judged in Adam and Everyone is saved in Christ. meaning everyone who ever lived. (universalism)

    2. everyone is judged in Adam and saved in Christ. meaning everyone who believes

    3. only a few sinned in Adam and only a few will be saved in Christ.

    4. The first "All" is referring to everyone who has ever lived, and the second "all" is referring to those who believe.

    5. Or Paul was simply saying: Man is condemned in Adam and and saved through Christ.

    You be the judge
     
  16. Winman

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    Then explain Romans 5:18

    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life.

    Please answer, and do not falsely accuse me of being a Universalist, I am not.
     
  17. Winman

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    I believe I understand this verse, but I am sure you will not accept my explanation.

    But that is not the issue. We are discussing words like "all" as shown twice in Rom 5:18. They are the same word in the Greek.

    Do you accept that both mean 100% of men?
     
  18. Iconoclast

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    Okay....lets look

    There are the two representative men,
    verse 19 explains it,as does 1 cor15;
    Winman ......on a piece of paper draw a big circle,use a black crayon
    that is all men ever born physically said to be .....in Adam....if they remain in Adam[the first Adam,by physical birth] they will die physically and remain dead in sin going into the second death.

    Now draw another circle inside the big circle,use a red crayon. This is the ALL who by God given faith by being born from above....are In Christ [the second Adam]
    Winman......this is the the main thing to understand....
    ALL HUMANS are in the black circle and are dead in sin.
    Those in the red circle are those who God saves out of the human race.
    They are the All who are In Christ.


    The word all is spelled the same.But all who remain in Adam.....are seperated from all who are justified in Christ. All at one time were in Adam.
    Not all are In Christ
     
  19. Robert Snow

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    No problem. The thing is we don't believe God chose some for heaven and deliberately rejected the others for hell. The ones who are elect are the ones who respond to the Gospel when it is presented.
     
  20. The Archangel

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    OK, if I understand you correctly, you are trying to find out how the "all" in Romans 3:23 means that babies are guilty of sin from conception, is that right? (For this post, I'll assume I am correct...if I'm incorrect, I'll write another post).

    First off, the passages you quote are different genres. Paul is, obviously, writing in an epistolary form in which he uses "diatribe" to make his points. Paul is making arguments and answering his own proposed questions.

    The Gospel of John is not epistolary; it is Gospel and as such it is much closer to strict narrative (in genre).

    Second, the word "all" is always qualified by context. In the Romans passage, Paul is making the point that both Jew and Greek (or everyone without exception) is a sinner. We see this in v. 9. From v. 9, Paul moves on to buttress his argument by quoting Old Testament passage which, regardless of their original context, are used to demonstrate that "all" are sinners. By the time we get to v. 23, it is clear that Paul is making the charge that the Law applies to both Jew and Gentile and that both Jew and Gentile alike have transgressed the Law and are sinners. Or, to put it more simply, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile--both are sinners.

    In the John 3:16 passage, the word "all" is qualified and governed by the word group it is found in. In fact "whosoever" is not present and is an errant hold-over from the KJV translators who simply got this wrong (but because it is a beloved verse, most translators are reluctant to change it). The literal translation is "all the ones believing..." Because "all" appears as part of a phrase it is governed by that phrase and derives its meaning from the context, just as the "all" of Romans 3:23 means "Jew and Gentile."

    So, your question seeks an answer which cannot be found in the verses you posted. However, implication can be made from these very same verses.

    Implication 1: No one is righteous and all are sinners. Paul, here, makes no statement to how we become sinners. He is stating a simple fact. He is using the Aorist tense to see sin, not as individual acts, but as a summarized, completed action. Again, the individual acts here are not in view, but we can surmise that there are any number of examples of "sins" that are committed that we are guilty of.

    Implication 2: Only those believing in Christ will be forgiven of their sins. John is making this point in his Gospel, especially in 3:16. The salvation is not universal; it is limited. In the text alone, only those believing in Christ will be saved.

    One must read further in Paul (Romans 5) to get at the answer you are looking for. Once Romans 5 is examined, it might be said that Romans 3:23 is suggesting that we are sinners from conception.

    Romans 5 clearly states that "all sinned" and as a result, death spread to all men. Now, if Paul had stopped here, I would agree that we are sinners because we sin and we are not born with sin-guilt. However, Paul doesn't stop here...he continues to explain what he means.

    Sin was in the world before the Law.
    Does this refer to Adam and Eve's sin? If so, does it refer only to their sin?

    Sin is not counted where there is no Law. This is important. Technically, those after Adam and Eve could commit no sin because there was no Law to break. Obviously, we, from the rest of Scripture, know that incest, murder, rape, and all other forms of sin we see in Genesis are wrong. But the people in, say, the time of Abraham had no Law and were, therefore, not breaking it and, therefore, were not sinning.

    From our temporal standpoint, we can say they were, in fact, sinning. God Himself would likely say they were sinning (the flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.). However, what Paul is arguing is only a technicality. This is precisely why he says "sin is not counted." He doesn't make the case they didn't sin. It's just that they were not credited with their sin, in a sense.

    But, even though sin was not counted, people still died in between the time of Adam and the giving of the Law of Moses. This begs the following question: If sin was not counted (which it wasn't) and the wages of sin is death (which it is) why did people die between the time of Adam and Moses?

    The answer must be what we see in v. 12 when it says "all sinned." "All sinned" must refer to something other than our own individual sins. It must mean, then, that we, in some way, are held guilty for Adam's sin. In some way we are culpable for his sin. Abraham died, not for any sin he committed, but because he was a descendant of Adam and, as a result of his heritage, he bore guilt for Adam's sin.

    Why else would Paul go on to make statements like the following: "Because of one man's trespass death reigned through that one man" (v. 17); "One trespass led to condemnation for all men" (v. 18); and "by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" (v.19).

    Now, as to whether we are sinners because we commit sin or do we commit sin because we are sinners, Jesus answers this question when He says: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person." (Matthew 15). When you couple this statement with Genesis 6's statement that the intention of man's heart is only evil continually and Jeremiah's statement that the heart is desperately wicked, it is easy to see the heart is the issue and the heart is wicked which leads to sin.

    So, speaking from the standpoint of Biblical Theology, we are conceived already sinners because there is never a time when we are not "in Adam," there is never a time when we don't possess an already-fallen human nature, and there is never a time when we are innocent.

    The Archangel
     
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