"all have sinned"

Thanks for the response.....Federal headship is not the total defining picture of our relationship with God through Adam or Jesus. The following verses and many others would stand on their own in establishing a saving relationship without Federal headship.Again, it can be seen as one aspect among many.

1 john:1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.


Romans 3:25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,i through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

If I followed your point,though, I could then argue that the salvation violates any fairness, righteousness,mercy, justice,love etc for those who cannot choose to change headship.:love2:

 

I've always wrestled with the idea of an age of accountability. If we truly believe Romans 3:23, how do we say that any person of any age will attain eternal life without belief in Christ? If we say that babies cannot believe; therefore they must have a special dispensation, then must we also accept that those adults who have never even heard the name of Jesus Christ are equally unable to believe? It is a difficult issue to reconcile; especially in light of the word "all".

 

What is the point, might I ask, you are trying to make by posting these two verses?

The Archangel

 

You can! I used them to simply show relationship outside of Pauls headship line of example. Systematic theology is useful to me and millions others, but can be harmful as well if it can hinder simple faith.:love2:

 

Exactly. I've heard of this "procreated" in Adam's image stuff before, but I don't think it's correct.

 

Have you ever heard of a sinless human? The Bible says that is impossible.

I understand the desire to somehow make sense of the fact that God holds us culpable for something we are born into, but He does.

One thing that helps me to think about this issue is that if (when) I stand before the throne of God and have my entire life played back and contrasted to His Perfect Holiness, I will implicate myself as a sinner. In other words, I will completely agree with God about my born state, for it will be clearly evident from that vantage point that I am EXACTLY what God says I am.

Oh, praise God, that He did not leave me in that state! Through no effort of my own, He graced me with life and imputed righteousness so that when I do stand before His throne, I do so without condemnation.

One of the primary points I keep seeing is that people are trying to make it seem as if there is SOME good point within them that gives them the right to approach God; i.e., that we are not sinners until we sin, that we are born "innocent," etc. There is no good thing in us, and we do not "come to God" based on any act of human righteousness.

Our case is WORSE than many of you think! We have NO HOPE except that God act on our behalf!

 

No. But the bible says we are created in God's image, so I believe it. Being in His "image" does not mean that I am exactly like God. I have never read where we are created in Adam's image, but maybe I missed it.

I have no problem accepting the fact that I am responsible for my sin. I do not blame God or anyone.

Me too.

Me too. In Christ alone!

There is no good thing in me, but when it comes to infants, God does not hold them accountable for the sins of another. They are covered by the blood of Christ out of the mercy of God.

Absolutely! You will get no argument from me.

 

I am curious why you think that we are being held accountable for the sins of another?

Yes, in Adam, all are born sinners, but we are held accountable for our own sin.

Is it that you think that an infant cannot possibly sin? That is not true, and we had a long debate on that topic before. The moment an infant screams with that "me first" cry, they've already entered the realm of sin -- for most at the second we exit the birth canal, but even if not, there are no such things as "innocent" oersons on this earth.

The concept of "innocent" has to stem from the fact that you may see sin as a concious effort, but what if we sin without realizing it? In many a conversation with those who hold that they're salvation is wrapped around a continual confession and "cleaning the slate" I've not met many who admit that they can sin without even knowing it (and I'm not saying you are in this camp), but this is easily possible. We can walk right by someone that God intended for us to love. We can fail to cut a check to some mission agency at exactly the moment that would have furthered one critical goal. We be preoccupied and neglect to lift someone up in prayer as God intends. The list is as long as there are humans with needs and infants are not immune.

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. Romans 5:12-14 (ESV)

Of note is the fact that Barnes is an Arminian.

Hodge, a Calvinist, says this:

 

Webdog,

I'm not sure what your point is. I assume you are trying to refute my statement that man is (post fall) still "created" in the image of God.

But, you conveniently skip over what Genesis 5 says. I'll post that in my response to Amy (below).

Amy,

The idea that we are "pro-created" in Adam's image is absolutely biblical. See this passage from Genesis 5:

[5:1] This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. [2] Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created. [3] When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. (Genesis 5:1-3 ESV)
​

In this passage we have Adam and Eve being created in the image of God. Then, in the post-fall world, we have the rest of us who are like Seth--in Adam's image and likeness.

So, while it is true that we are still image bearers (because God has created us to image Him) we are not primarily in His image now. We are in Adam's image. All his sinful rebellion, etc. is passed to us because he is our "father." Again, this is why Paul's use of the dichotomy between "in Adam" and "in Christ" is so significant.

The Archangel

 

Indeed... We regain that imago Dei when we are made one with Christ, though not fully (already, but not yet) until our future glorification when we complete the process of salvation and restoration of the image of God.

 

I see what you're saying. I hadn't thought of it that way before.

See, I'm not too stubborn to learn!

 

ABSOLUTELY! Good words. Thank you.

The Archangel

 

Good observation Webdog, I never caught that before.

There are also NT verses that still say man is the image of God.

1 Cor 11: 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

Paul is speaking of the present, not the past.

Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

James is speaking of the present.

 

Based upon the stated belief that the sin nature is present before birth, do babies go to heaven or hell when they die? Upon what Scripture do you base that belief?

 

I generally agree with you, but that is rather vague. Could you state where babies go with Scripture?

 

I'm not claiming that having a sin nature means we were made in his image. We were procreated in Adam's image and that is why we have a sin nature. I'm not "theologising" this; that we are in Adam's image is clearly stated in Genesis 5:

[5:1] This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. [2] Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created. [3] When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. (Genesis 5:1-3 ESV)
​

See v. 3: "[Adam] fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image."

The Archangel