All that the father gives me

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jul 28, 2013.

  1. Van

    Van
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    Understanding the biblical concept of the phrase “all that the Father gives Me” requires careful study of several passages of scripture. First lets look at John 6.

    In verse 37, Jesus says (NASB) “All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” This verse says if a person is given to Christ, it results in salvation 100% of the time; all given come and are not cast out. Second, the sequence seems clear, first if God gives someone they either simultaneously come to Christ or after they are given, they come to Christ, but clearly folks do not come to Christ before they are given.

    In verse 44, Jesus says (NASB) “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise Him up on the last day.” This verse says two things, no one can come to Jesus unless God draws him, and everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved, for Jesus will raise him up on the last day.

    Putting the two verses together, we get (1) God draws people, (2) some or all those drawn are given to Christ, (3) all those given in this manner come to Jesus, and (4) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

    In verse 45, Jesus says (NASB) “It is written in the prophets, “And they shall all be taught of God.” Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.”
    So everyone who comes to Jesus must first have heard of God, which I think refers to hearing the gospel message. Then, everyone that comes to Jesus must have learned of God from God’s message. I think this learning refers to accepting and trusting in Christ.

    Putting all three verses from John 6 together we get, (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

    So based on these verses from John 6 we have a working hypothesis of the meaning of the phrase, “all that the Father gives to Me.”

    In verse 65, Jesus says (NASB) “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to me, unless it has been granted Him from the Father.” If God has hardened the hearts of some, they will not understand the gospel and they will be unable to learn from it, is how I understand the verse - using “granted” to mean allowed. If God hardens a person’s heart, like Judas in this passage, then it has not been granted to come to Jesus. Judas certainly heard the message but just as certainly did not learn from it and put his faith in Christ. So it appears to me that this verse is consistent with my working hypothesis.

    In John 12:32, Jesus says (NASB) “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” Christ crucified is the center of the gospel message, so this is somewhat consistent with the working hypothesis. However, to fit, I must understand “all men” to refer to all men who have heard and understood the gospel, because the message of Christ being “lifted up” would not it seems to me to draw folks who either did not hear or understand the gospel. In Matthew 13, the parable of the four soils, Jesus explains that some people have hardened themselves, rather than being hardened by God for His purpose such as Judas or Pharaoh, and it appears to me that those who have hardened their heart to the degree they cannot understand the gospel, will not be drawn by the gospel, Matt. 13:19. Clearly my understanding requires a difference between being drawn to Jesus (John 12:32) and coming to Jesus (John 6:37; 44 and 45).

    In order to accept this view as consistent with all scripture, one must accept that to be drawn means understanding a persuasive argument and accepting it to some degree, although not necessarily making a full commitment, i.e. the other soils of Matthew 13. Matthew 13 clearly indicated folks could be attracted to the gospel, i.e. receive it with joy, and yet not believe from the heart or with all their heart.

    In John 10:29 (NASB) Jesus says, “My Father who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” First, the “them” refers back to verse 28 and to the ones Christ gives eternal life. In verse 28 Jesus says no one can snatch them out of His (Christ’s) hand and in verse 29 Jesus says no one can snatch them out of His Father’s hand. Thus when we are spiritually placed in Christ, we are in both the Father’s and the Son’s hand, saved forever. To make this clear, Jesus says, (verse 30) “I and My Father are one.” This verse, too, is consistent with the working hypothesis.

    In John 17:4 we see that God gives other things to Christ, in this case His work to accomplish, and so we need to look at context to verify that people are being given to Christ for the purpose of their salvation, as opposed to something or someone being given to Christ for some other purpose.

    In John 17:6 we see that the Father has given some individuals to Christ, but the purpose was for them to receive the words God had given to Christ (verse 8). We see that these men were given to Christ out of the world, so out of the “kosmos of man” God gave these to Christ for a purpose. These men believed God had sent Jesus, that Jesus was the Messiah.

    In verses 9 – 12 we see that Jesus asks in behalf of these men, His disciples, for God to keep them in His name, indicating they were believers and Jesus is asking God to protect their faith, sanctify them in truth so to speak. Jesus says not one of them perished, but the son of Perdition, again indicating these were not given for the purpose of salvation. Jesus then says, verse 20, that He is not asking in behalf of the disciples only, but also for those who will believe in Christ through the message Christ gave them from God.

    In John 17:24 (NASB) Jesus says, "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.” This also refers to Christ’s disciples given to Christ for the purpose of passing on the gospel to the world. To be with Me, again refers to being with Christ as a faithful servant, rather than apart from Christ spreading less than the pure gospel.

    If we back up a bit and return to verse 17:6, we see that in these verses, the Father is giving to the Son people who belong to the Father. This begs the question, in what way did the disciples belong to the Father before they were given to the Son. All but Judas were “of God” meaning under the influence of God, looking for the Messiah, trusting in God’s word (Old Testament revelation). From this I conclude Jesus is referring to the eleven, Jesus was not praying in behalf of Judas, and therefore Jesus is saying they belonged to God because they believed in God and were committed to following God as best they knew how.

    1 John 5:1 says (NASB), “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. Based on the Greek tenses, this verse says that everyone who believes in the present has been born of God in the past. It is God who determines whether or not a person “believes” (Romans 4:5). John 1:12-13 says whoever believes in Christ is given by God the right to become children of God, born by the will of God. So if we put those three verses together we get (3) God gives 100% of those whose faith He credits as righteous to Christ, and (5) everyone that arrives in Christ in this manner is then born again by the will of God and saved forever

    In John 3:3 scripture teaches we must have been born again to see the kingdom of God. In John 3:5 scripture teaches we must be born of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

    In summary, I have found no passage of scripture that conflicts with this understanding of John 6:37 - (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

    Steps 2 and 3 comprise our individual election unto salvation, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, which says “… God has chosen you from the beginning [of the New Covenant] for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the Truth. And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” When God chooses to credit our faith as righteousness (Romans 4:5) He then gives us to Christ by spiritually placing us in Christ, thus “all that the Father gives Me” are saved forever.
     
  2. Alive in Christ

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    Van...your post is very go good. Thank you.

    How about this for a "condenced" version...


    All receive light...

    All have oportunity...

    Those who choose Christ are saved...

    Those reject Christ are lost...
     
    #2 Alive in Christ, Aug 2, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2013
  3. Revmitchell

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    Probably the only place in scripture a cal will believe all means all. :laugh:
     
  4. Tom Butler

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    Just to clarify, are you agreeing that in this case all does mean all without exception, or are you saying non-cals may see it differently?
     
  5. InTheLight

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    That and also 2 Peter 3:9.
     
  6. Revmitchell

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    I wasn't saying anything either way.
     
  7. Rippon

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    The word all in the sense of each and everyone? Well, Romans 3:23 is certainly a passage where Calvinists agree that it applies to each and every person--not merely all without distinction but all without exception.

    "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    We are quite used to that:thumbs:

    That is your M.O.
    We noticed:laugh:
    Never seem to,unless it is an anti reformed remark:laugh:
     
  9. Revmitchell

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    Do you ever feel as if you are actually emulating your own accusations? You should this one above is a prime example.
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    No...not really.These are your posts...not mine:wavey:


     
  11. Revmitchell

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    Really? You think that posting those presents a factual picture of my posting? Would you like me to go through and post some of yours? Fact is we could do that to everyone on this board. Your sophomoric attempt to attack me here is childish. I mean seriously is that all you got?
     
  12. Earth Wind and Fire

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    I dont see it as childish at all, rather I see it as a factual representation of how you represent yourself. Also do you deny that you take potshots at Calvinists from time to time?
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    So far so good

    So far so good

    Your conclusions are no better than you foundations and here is the point where your foundation begins to be corrupted. You say "some or all" thus introducing the idea that some do not come to Christ that are drawn by the Father to Christ. You introduce the idea that the Father fails to draw all to the Son. However, there is nothing in this text which supports that hypothesis at all except your theological reading into the text that possibility.

    However, you do conclude tht "all those GIVEN in this manner come to Jesus.

    I would like to point to the fact that all are "GIVEN" in this manner to Christ as John 6:65 when restating this again, he drops the word "draw" and substitutes "given" and what is "given" by the Father is faith in Christ as verse 64 clearly demonstrates. Jesus knew "from the beginning" all who really never believed in him including Judas and "THEREFORE" that is why Jesus said to them that ability to believe must be "given" unto them by the Father or they cannot come to christ in faith.

    This fact is also demanded by verse 45. The first clause is not an interpretation by Christ but a quotation of Isaiah 54:13 by Christ. Isaiah claims "ALL" shall be taught of God. Common sense tells you that a person has never been "taught" of God if they have neither "heard" or "learned" of God. It requires both to be taught by anyone or they are not "taught." None can be taught if they do not HEAR the teacher. Neither can they be "taught" if they hear but LEARN nothing. Both are required to be "TAUGHT" of God and "EVERY MAN" thus taught comes to Christ in faith.

    Jesus says (NASB) “It is written in the prophets, “And they shall all be taught of God.” Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.”

    Whatever you may "think" it means, you are missing the simplicity of his statement. He is interpreting what it means to be "taught" which consists of BOTH not one or the other as BOTH are essential for anyone to claim they have been "taught" by anyone else or for any teacher to claimis he has "taught" anyone else. This is what TEACHING by God consists of and "EVERY MAN" is equal to the "ALL" in Isaiah as Christ is merely interpreting Isaiah rather than making a contrast with Isaiah.

    Putting all of this together, the reason why ALL the Father Gives to the Son come and none are lost is because God teaches "all" of these in this manner and that is how they are given to the Son by the Father.
     
    #13 The Biblicist, Aug 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2013
  14. Van

    Van
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    There is no need to debate that draw does not mean compel. It does not, and all lexicons agree.

    But the idea that "taught" equals "given" is simply yet another rewrite, redefinition of scripture.

    1) All that are given were drawn.

    2) Not all that are drawn are given.

    3) All that have heard and learned from the Father Come to Me.

    4) All that have been taught from the Father come to Me.

    5) All that come to Me arrive in Me and I will not cast out.

    6) All that come to Me arrive in Me and I will raise up on the last day.
     
    #14 Van, Aug 5, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2013
  15. Van

    Van
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    1) All that hear and understand the gospel have opportunity
    2) All that hear, understand and learn are given to Christ
    3) All given to Christ are saved and will be raised up on the last day.
     
  16. Van

    Van
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    One of the ways teachers of mistaken doctrine give themselves away is that use different meanings for the same word or phrase to bend scripture according to their man-made doctrine.

    On the other hand, sometimes the same phrase, i.e. come to Me, is used to mean different things, and so to pick one meaning and apply to all is unsound.

    Come to me can refer to physically traveling to or toward someone.
    Or, it can be mentally agreeing with someone's teaching or doctrine.
    Or it can refer to God putting someone spiritually in Christ, such that they both arrive in Christ, and Christ will not cast them out.

    The problem with applying the mental agreement view to John 6, it that it does not address arriving in Christ such that Christ will not cast them out. The only way to fit the passage together is to say, when God gives someone to Christ for salvation, He puts them spiritually in Christ, thus they come to Me refers to God transferring someone from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son.
     
    #16 Van, Aug 5, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2013
  17. The Biblicist

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    Why don't you address my post directly as I do yours? It is a little bit harder to escape by using mere assertions (as above) when you have to directly deal with what another poster says and what he says is right their parallel to your assertions.
     
  18. Iconoclast

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    Yes...he is avoiding the real issues and invents his own terminology to try and make it sound plausible.....pure shuck and jive,:laugh:
     
  19. The Biblicist

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    That is false! Find any Lexicon that does not give the meaning to "drag off" or metpahorically inward compulsion, for example:

    1. Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich - "drag....drag someone out....pull on a man's inner life...."

    2. Thayer - "a person forcibly and against his will.....drag off...impel..."

    The truth is that I don't know any Lexicon that does not give as one meaning to drag off or to impel.

    All that are drawn come as that is inherent in the meaning of draw. It is impossible to draw in a net or draw in a line or draw in anything without it coming to ou at one and the same itme.

    Do you really think by just asserting something makes it so??????!!! I gave the contextual evidence and it repudiates your empty assertion. Verse 45 contains the scripture in the first clause of the verse while the second clause contains the explanation. It is IMPOSSIBLE to teach or claim one has been taught if they have not BOTH heard and learned and "EVERY MAN" that does comes to Christ. Teaching is given as an explanation of HOW the Father draws and "ALL" drawn come


    Again, you are simply making an empty assertion whereas the contextual evidence repudiates your claim - draw = taught = all taught = every man...cometh"

    This is Christ's own explanation of what it means to be drawn by the Father and therefore thank you for your confesssion that all drawn do come.
     
  20. Van

    Van
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    More fiction folks, draw used metaphorically is never, never, said to refer to "inward compulsion."

    So rather than address the metaphorical use, Biblicist simply evades a direct response and offers up the non-germane definition of draw used literally, as in draw a bucket of water. Shuck and jive folks.

    Next, we get the false statement that draw means only to compel irresistibly. But that is not the inherent meaning when used metaphorically. So more evasion, more shuck and jive.

    Next we get the claim of "contextual evidence." None was actually presented. More evasion, more shuck and jive.

    As I have shown teaching equates with having heard and learned, not being drawn.

    The inability to read what is being said does not teach anything. Come to me can refer to physically traveling to or toward someone.
    Or, it can be mentally agreeing with someone's teaching or doctrine.
    Or it can refer to God putting someone spiritually in Christ, such that they both arrive in Christ, and Christ will not cast them out.

    The problem with applying the mental agreement view to John 6, it that it does not address arriving in Christ such that Christ will not cast them out. The only way to fit the passage together is to say, when God gives someone to Christ for salvation, He puts them spiritually in Christ, thus they come to Me refers to God transferring someone from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son.

    And finally, we get more shuck and jive, I say one thing and Biblicist says I said something else. LOL
     

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