Featured All that the father gives me

Understanding the biblical concept of the phrase “all that the Father gives Me” requires careful study of several passages of scripture. First lets look at John 6.

In verse 37, Jesus says (NASB) “All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” This verse says if a person is given to Christ, it results in salvation 100% of the time; all given come and are not cast out. Second, the sequence seems clear, first if God gives someone they either simultaneously come to Christ or after they are given, they come to Christ, but clearly folks do not come to Christ before they are given.

In verse 44, Jesus says (NASB) “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise Him up on the last day.” This verse says two things, no one can come to Jesus unless God draws him, and everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved, for Jesus will raise him up on the last day.

Putting the two verses together, we get (1) God draws people, (2) some or all those drawn are given to Christ, (3) all those given in this manner come to Jesus, and (4) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

In verse 45, Jesus says (NASB) “It is written in the prophets, “And they shall all be taught of God.” Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” So everyone who comes to Jesus must first have heard of God, which I think refers to hearing the gospel message. Then, everyone that comes to Jesus must have learned of God from God’s message. I think this learning refers to accepting and trusting in Christ.

Putting all three verses from John 6 together we get, (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

So based on these verses from John 6 we have a working hypothesis of the meaning of the phrase, “all that the Father gives to Me.”

In verse 65, Jesus says (NASB) “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to me, unless it has been granted Him from the Father.” If God has hardened the hearts of some, they will not understand the gospel and they will be unable to learn from it, is how I understand the verse - using “granted” to mean allowed. If God hardens a person’s heart, like Judas in this passage, then it has not been granted to come to Jesus. Judas certainly heard the message but just as certainly did not learn from it and put his faith in Christ. So it appears to me that this verse is consistent with my working hypothesis.

In John 12:32, Jesus says (NASB) “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” Christ crucified is the center of the gospel message, so this is somewhat consistent with the working hypothesis. However, to fit, I must understand “all men” to refer to all men who have heard and understood the gospel, because the message of Christ being “lifted up” would not it seems to me to draw folks who either did not hear or understand the gospel. In Matthew 13, the parable of the four soils, Jesus explains that some people have hardened themselves, rather than being hardened by God for His purpose such as Judas or Pharaoh, and it appears to me that those who have hardened their heart to the degree they cannot understand the gospel, will not be drawn by the gospel, Matt. 13:19. Clearly my understanding requires a difference between being drawn to Jesus (John 12:32) and coming to Jesus (John 6:37; 44 and 45).

In order to accept this view as consistent with all scripture, one must accept that to be drawn means understanding a persuasive argument and accepting it to some degree, although not necessarily making a full commitment, i.e. the other soils of Matthew 13. Matthew 13 clearly indicated folks could be attracted to the gospel, i.e. receive it with joy, and yet not believe from the heart or with all their heart.

In John 10:29 (NASB) Jesus says, “My Father who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” First, the “them” refers back to verse 28 and to the ones Christ gives eternal life. In verse 28 Jesus says no one can snatch them out of His (Christ’s) hand and in verse 29 Jesus says no one can snatch them out of His Father’s hand. Thus when we are spiritually placed in Christ, we are in both the Father’s and the Son’s hand, saved forever. To make this clear, Jesus says, (verse 30) “I and My Father are one.” This verse, too, is consistent with the working hypothesis.

In John 17:4 we see that God gives other things to Christ, in this case His work to accomplish, and so we need to look at context to verify that people are being given to Christ for the purpose of their salvation, as opposed to something or someone being given to Christ for some other purpose.

In John 17:6 we see that the Father has given some individuals to Christ, but the purpose was for them to receive the words God had given to Christ (verse 8). We see that these men were given to Christ out of the world, so out of the “kosmos of man” God gave these to Christ for a purpose. These men believed God had sent Jesus, that Jesus was the Messiah.

In verses 9 – 12 we see that Jesus asks in behalf of these men, His disciples, for God to keep them in His name, indicating they were believers and Jesus is asking God to protect their faith, sanctify them in truth so to speak. Jesus says not one of them perished, but the son of Perdition, again indicating these were not given for the purpose of salvation. Jesus then says, verse 20, that He is not asking in behalf of the disciples only, but also for those who will believe in Christ through the message Christ gave them from God.

In John 17:24 (NASB) Jesus says, "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.” This also refers to Christ’s disciples given to Christ for the purpose of passing on the gospel to the world. To be with Me, again refers to being with Christ as a faithful servant, rather than apart from Christ spreading less than the pure gospel.

If we back up a bit and return to verse 17:6, we see that in these verses, the Father is giving to the Son people who belong to the Father. This begs the question, in what way did the disciples belong to the Father before they were given to the Son. All but Judas were “of God” meaning under the influence of God, looking for the Messiah, trusting in God’s word (Old Testament revelation). From this I conclude Jesus is referring to the eleven, Jesus was not praying in behalf of Judas, and therefore Jesus is saying they belonged to God because they believed in God and were committed to following God as best they knew how.

1 John 5:1 says (NASB), “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. Based on the Greek tenses, this verse says that everyone who believes in the present has been born of God in the past. It is God who determines whether or not a person “believes” (Romans 4:5). John 1:12-13 says whoever believes in Christ is given by God the right to become children of God, born by the will of God. So if we put those three verses together we get (3) God gives 100% of those whose faith He credits as righteous to Christ, and (5) everyone that arrives in Christ in this manner is then born again by the will of God and saved forever

In John 3:3 scripture teaches we must have been born again to see the kingdom of God. In John 3:5 scripture teaches we must be born of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

In summary, I have found no passage of scripture that conflicts with this understanding of John 6:37 - (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

Steps 2 and 3 comprise our individual election unto salvation, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, which says “… God has chosen you from the beginning [of the New Covenant] for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the Truth. And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” When God chooses to credit our faith as righteousness (Romans 4:5) He then gives us to Christ by spiritually placing us in Christ, thus “all that the Father gives Me” are saved forever.

 

1) Draw, when used metaphorically does not mean compel.

2) Impel, like draw can mean compel, or to urge by persuasion.

3) Here is the Vine's quote: "This less violent significance, usually present in helko, but always absent from suro, is seen in the metaphorical use of helko, to signify "drawing" by inward power, by Divine impulse, John 6:44; 12:32. So in the Sept., e.g., Song of Sol. 1:4; Jer. 31:3, "with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.""

4) The "inward power" refers to our desires, thus we are "drawn" to what we desire. We are drawn to those who love us because we desire love, so God drew us with lovingkindness when we beheld Him high and lifted up.

5) Thus the pull on a man's inner life is the pull of his or her desires, therefore to be drawn is to be attracted, i.e. drawn or attracted by God's lovingkindness.

Now concerning the charges:

Draw when used metaphorically never means compel.

Draw when used metaphorically never means inward compulsion.

I stand by these statements and have not once "misinformed" anyone. These statements are supported by every lexicon.

 

This describes your position.

Repeating nonsense does not make it less nonsensical. All that have heard and learned from the Father have all been taught by God. So simple even a child could grasp it.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

The view not only fits with John 6:44-45, it fits with all scripture. Your assertion is nonsense.

The "effectual call" is a complete work of fiction found nowhere in scripture.

Glad you brought up 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. Lets consider our "calling." This does not refer to hearing the call of the gospel, or even accepting Christ, but rather of God choosing to credit our faith as righteousness and put us in Christ, for we are "in Christ" by God's doing. Thus no man can boast as being wise, or powerful or well born. God gives grace to the humble but opposes the proud. No need to try to dress up being put in Christ by God alone as the effectual call (AKA irresistible grace). That sort of flim flam will not work.

Romans 8:28 refers to those who have been called according to His purpose, and again this refers to those who have been spiritually put in Christ. God's plan of redemption was formulated before time began, and the plan included His Redeemer, Christ, dying as the perfect sacrifice, thus those washed by His blood would be redeemed, i.e. which refers to those He foreknew corporately. The plan also included that all those individuals put spiritually in Christ would be conformed to the image of Christ. So these whom He foreknew and predestined corporately, He individually put in Christ based on Him crediting their faith in the truth as righteousness. Once in Christ we are washed by His blood, thus justified, and made blameless spiritually, thus glorified spiritually and allowed in the spiritual presence of God.

Again, the effort to label being put in Christ as the "effectual call" is nonsense, the effectual call according to Calvinism occurs before a person has heard and learned from the Father, but we are put in Christ through faith in the truth, thus after are faith has been credited as righteousness. The flim flam of labeling different actions (one before we believe, and one after we believe) as the same effectual call is simply shuck and jive.

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 again refers to God individually choosing a person and placing them in Christ. This is not the effectual call (AKA irresistible grace, AKA quickening, AKA, regeneration before faith). Paul knew God has individually chosen them because he personally came to them and presented the gospel to them, not in a letter, i.e. words only, but with his own power of presentation as he was filled with the Holy Spirit. So again, yet another vague verse, where Paul refers to his Holy Spirit anointing is labeled as evidence for the fiction of the "effectual call." Nonsense yet again.

 

Thanks Biblicist, it is waste of time refuting the same bogus claims over and over and over.

Calvinism's effectual call is a fiction, claimed to occur before a person has faith in the truth, being, according to the mistaken doctrine, unable to have faith in the truth before being zapped by Calvinism's "irresistible grace." The effort to claim God choosing us through faith in the truth fits the fiction is nonsense.

 

Has anyone claimed "the universal drawing by Christ." The drawing is limited to those who behold and understand Christ dying for them. Jesus said I will draw all men if I am lifted up. This refers to the cross of Christ.

John 6:45 indicates that "all that are taught by the Father" are those who have heard and learned from the Father, and only these will come to Me. This meshes with all your sons will be taught by the Lord. Everyone that comes to Me (is placed in Christ) becomes a born again son of the Lord.

Thus the case is closed yet again, no scripture says or suggests that everyone drawn is compelled to believe in Christ by irresistible grace. It is a fiction found no where in the Bible, especially in John 6:44-45 and Isaiah 54:13.

 

Why double down on your strawman argument. Why shuck and jive. Why not address that draw, when used metaphorically refers to attracting by God demonstrating lovingkindness, i.e. while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Not everyone drawn is given to Christ. Not everyone who sees Christ high and lifted up is given to Christ.

Here is a short and incomplete list of the fictions of Biblicist.

1) Everyone drawn is given to Christ. No verse or passages says or implies this.

2) No one ever at any time seeks God. Matthew 23:13 teaches unregenerate men were entering heaven, thus they for a time, were seeking God.

3) Christ did not die for all men. 1 John 2:2 teaches the opposite, Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.

4) God chose individuals for salvation unconditionally. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, thus a conditional election.

 

Recall the oil lease/extraction distinction. The right to wash away anyone's sins was purchased by Christ, He became the propitiation, or means of salvation, for the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Thus the false teacher was "bought" by Christ, yet not saved (extracted).

I have interacted with dozens of Calvinists, and yet not even one has responded with, yes I see what you are saying and it makes biblical sense. They deny Christ laid down his life as a ransom for all, they deny Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, i.e. all of fallen mankind. They deny God so loved the world, i.e. fallen mankind, that He gave His one of a kind Son. On and on it goes, denial of verse after verse after verse.

All that the Father gives Me refers to those whose faith God has credited as righteousness, thus God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. Believers have been taught by the Father, have heard and learned, and their faith has been accepted by God. These are transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son.

And to repeat for the umpteen time, note that those who come to Me actually arrive in Christ, a transfer only God does, because Christ then says He will not cast them out. Thus the phrase does not mean coming to faith, but rather being put spiritually in Christ. So simple a child could understand it.