All things will be fulfilled, Luke 21:22

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Apr 29, 2011.

  1. asterisktom

    asterisktom
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    All things fulfilled, Luke 21:22

    Luke 21 is a very convenient passage to turn to, seeing that both dispensationalists (as far as I know) and Preterists understand these events to be referring to the times of AD70. Just one proof of this out of many that could be cited is that of Thomas Ice:

    "Preterists and Futurist, like myself, both agree that Luke 21:20-24 prophesied the a.d. 70 Roman destruction of Jerusalem."
    (From Tyndale's Conservative Theological Society, "Preterism and Zechariah 12-14: Tom's Perspective")

    But this causes many more problems for them than it solves. Notice these words of Christ:

    20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    I realize that modern convention is to make a distinction between "days of vengeance" and "year of redemption", based on Jesus' omission of the former in Luke 4. But they do not prove that the events themselves are separate - certainly not by thousands of years. But more on this later.

    "All things will be fulfilled". The questions to answer now are: What are the "all things"? And, when will this happen?

    The second question can be answered by the context. "These are the days of vengeance", the "these" being Jerusalem surrounded by Roman armies. Unless there is further need to prove the question of when I would like to move on to the real point of contention, at least on this board, and that is just how inclusive that "all" should be.

    Don Preston has good insight on this very passage in his recent video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1LcLEAOOO4&feature=share

    He shows that even if the "all things" refer to only the things of Jerusalem it would cause serious problems, seeing that there are several Old Testament passages that would then come into view, like Isa. 65:13-17 and Daniel 12. There are a number of futurists who concede that Luke 21 foretold the destruction of the Jewish Covenant. That being the case, according to that passage in Isa. 65, we are now in the New Creation. According to Isaiah 65:13-17 the destruction of the Old Covenant leads right into the New Creation.

    The New Testament parallel is in Rev. 21, where Babylon (Jerusalem) is destroyed to make way for the new heavens and new Earth.

    Take a look at Daniel 12. Here again we see the "all things" in verses 7-8. But read the whole chapter to get the context. You will see that the "all things" in Daniel 12 are "great tribulation", resurrection, "righteous shinning forth as the stars", and "the end of the age".

    When will these "all things" of Daniel 12 be fulfilled? Look at verse 7. It is "when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered". Who are the holy people? Covenant Israel.

    The shattering of their power was the final, irrevocable destruction of their Temple and whole system of worship. All of this is confirmed in Luke 21, Matt. 24, and by historical accounts like Josephus and Tacitus.

    According to all of the above Scripture - not man's wisdom and perception - we conclude that we are now in the new Heavens and new Earth, new creatures in a new creation.
     
    #1 asterisktom, Apr 29, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2011
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    Tom,
    At this point i am a partial preterist....Jesus will return bodily in the future.
    i posted on these portions of scripture that they are a fulfillment of Deut 28-33. Covenant curses coming upon apostate Israel[babylon, sodom and egypt]
     
  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    If we turn to Matthew's account of the Olivet Discourse, you may see that the disciples asked our Lord three questions, not one (Matt 24:3). "When wiil these things be? [ie. The things described in v2] 'And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

    Now it may be convenient and legitimate to suppose that these thre questions are, in fact, one but there is no compulsion to do so.

    In Luke's account, the Lord Jesus appears to answer only the one question, at least up to v33. After that, it appears that He is talking about something else. It is hard to see how the destruction of Jerusalem was a 'Snare on all those who dwell upon the face of the whole earth.' As I have said, people living in Greece or Rome, whether Christian or pagan might not have known about the destruction until weeks, months or even years after the event, and life went on for them in exactly the same way as it had done before. If the world came to an end, no one told them about it! :laugh:

    But I digress. Jerusalem was indeed surrounded by armies. The Zealot uprising began in 68 and continued until 73, Jerusalem being destroyed in 70. The seige went on for months, and the prophesies of Deut 28:51ff were literally and horribly fulfilled. But the Christians were forewarned by the Lord Jesus and fled, according to tradition, to Pella, near the Brook Cherith.

    My point is that they knew it was coming, both Jew and Christian. The destruction of Jerusalem did not come 'Like a thief in the night.' It was not destroyed in a single day like Babylon (Dan 5:30; Rev 18:17). It was long, drawn out and agonizing. No one was saying, "peace and safety" (1Thes 5:3) when Jerusalem fell. Nor were they eating and drinking and marrying wives and giving in marriage (Lukev 18:27). They were starving and desperate. Read Josephus.

    "But of that day and hour knows no one, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" (Mark 13:32). But if 'that day' is the destruction of Jerusalem, the Son did know. "This generation shall by no means pass away till all these things take place.'

    I conclude therefore that there are two events being prophesied in the Olivet Discourse. One is the 'Vengeance of the Landowner' (Matt 21:40-43). It is that over which the Lord Jesus was weeping in Luke 19:41-44. But there is another Day which will come, not just upon Jerusalem but upon the whole earth like a thief in the night and it behoves all professing Christians to be ready for it (Luke 2:35ff). Those who tell Christians that the Day of Christ has already come are called deceivers by Paul (2Thes 2:1-3).

    One last question, a little off-topic. If AD70 was the end of the Age, how come there are any married Hyper-preterists (Luke 20:34-5)?

    Steve
     
    #3 Martin Marprelate, Apr 29, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2011
  4. revmwc

    revmwc
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    I have already gone through it once on another post but we can go through it again.

    Luke 21:
    1And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.

    2And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.

    3And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:

    4For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

    Of course He was watching and seeing how things were going in 1 through 4, I am sure you aren't talking about these verses.


    5And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

    6As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    No we all know that this prophecy came true in 70 A.D. and the short term prophecies of the Jewish system proved a prophet to be true or false.

    Then He gives long term future signs of things to come,

    7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

    8And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

    9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

    10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

    11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

    Matthew 24 adds this to qualify what he is saying, 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
    These will be the signs prior to the Mark 13 says it like this 8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

    The beginning of the coming time will be marked with these signs, we are seeing them today.


    Then we see prophecy for the beginning of the church and this happened as prophesied.

    12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

    13And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

    14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

    15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

    James was beheaded for the cause of Christ, Peter and John were arrested and scourged.

    This will be tribulation period,

    16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

    17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

    18But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

    19In your patience possess ye your souls.

    20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

    21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

    22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

    24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

    26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

    Then we see Christ at His second coming:

    27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

    29And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

    30When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

    31So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

    32Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled

    The tribulational generation will see this all happen. If you want to apply this to the disciples generation then they too saw it happen in vision especially John on Patmos.

    Then at the end of the kingdom age we see, 33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

    Jesus warns us to be alert tothe times,

    34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

    35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

    36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man
     
  5. revmwc

    revmwc
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    Now we see Revelation 3: 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will also keep thee from the hour of the temptation, which shall come upon the whole world to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    11 Behold, I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

    Christ will keep the believer those that endure from the hor of temptation, keep in mind an hour references time and the greek for temptation can be translated, trial, test or tribulation.
     
  6. revmwc

    revmwc
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    Then to say that Israel is through and God is talking everything else as spiritual this passage must be dealt with.

    Ezekial 38:1And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

    2Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,


    Notice Meshech or as the city is known today Moscow, and Tubal or the anceint capital of Siberia known as Tubolsk. So Gog and Magog would reference Russia and it's subsideries.

    3And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

    4And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

    5Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

    Notice Persia (Iran) and Ethiopia and then Libya will be involved in this attack.

    6Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

    These would be the Turkish area and nations surrounding them, we see the turmoil in those areas today.

    7Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.

    8After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

    9Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

    10Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:

    11And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

    12To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

    13Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

    14Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

    15And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

    16And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

    17Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

    18And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.

    19For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

    20So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

    21And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

    22And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

    23Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD


    This has never happened therefore it is yet future for Israel
     
  7. revmwc

    revmwc
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    Then we need to deal with this
    Ezekial 39:
    1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

    2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

    3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

    4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.


    When has Russia, Iran, Libya and other nations fallen on the noumtains of Israel? I have seen nothing in history books about it.

    5Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

    6And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

    7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

    When has Christ name been known in Israel? When have the heathen known the Lord the Holy One of Israel? Again nothing in history shows this.

    8Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

    9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

    10So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

    11And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

    12And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

    Israel has never spent seven months burying any bodies let alone Russians, Iranians or Libyians. In order to cleanse their land and their is no valley called Hamongog in Israel today.

    13Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.

    14And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.

    15And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.

    16And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.

    No city called Hamonah.

    17And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

    18Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

    19And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

    20Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

    21And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

    22So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

    23And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

    24According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

    25Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

    26After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

    27When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

    28Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

    29Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

    God hasn't brought them back after these events and He has not poured his Spirit upon the house of Israel as their. they have yet to acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah and King.

    All this must take place and be fulfilled or nothing Ezekial wrote is true. If he was quoted by anyone then they too were false prophets if he is.
     

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