"All"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by PrimePower7, Jul 15, 2008.

  1. PrimePower7

    PrimePower7
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    "All means 'all', and that's all that 'all' means". You ever heard that. Well, in Hebrews 11:5, Enoch didn't die. In Hebrews 11:13, "these 'all' died in faith". Obviously, "all" is used in a general sense--like "most". So.... how does that play in to 2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God"? Does this mean that "most" are? Does it mean that "all kinds" are?

    Hmmm.
     
  2. Amy.G

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    It means "all". The "all" you are questioning refers back to verse 8 and the promise that was given to Abraham.
    Verse 12 is the "all" that died before the promise came to pass.

    Hbr 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, [so many] as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
    Hbr 11:13 ¶ These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


    It does not refer to Enoch as the promise was not given to him.

    Context.
     
  3. ReformedBaptist

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    Most words, if not all :laugh: , have a semantic range. The word "all" is no exception. The semantic range of the word must be defined by the context and the passage interpreted in the light of Scripture itself.
     
  4. PrimePower7

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    Good point, Amy. I can see the context clearly.
     
  5. PrimePower7

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    ok..

    Isn't that a little subjective? I think I agree, but how do we handle these contextual "ranges" in light of Romans 3:23, 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Timothy 3:16. I believe we can say each person has sinned, God wants each man to be saved, and each Scripture is God-breathed. What is our grounds for believing "all" means "each" here?
     
  6. ReformedBaptist

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    Actually, it would be objective. A subjective approach would ignore that words have a semantic range. An objective approach would recognize that about language, and then look to the context for its range.

    For example, take the word day. Here was ways that the meaning can change based on context.

    1. Back in the day, I was very rebellious.
    2. I was rebellious one day.
    3. I was rebellious during the day.

    In each case I am using the same word, but the context defines my meaning. In the first sentence I am referring to an extended period of time. In the second, to a particular day. And in the third, to a particular part of a day.

    The same is true of the word "all" It can refer to each and everyone (or thing) without exception. It can refer to a group within a larger group, et.

    So to answer you question in how to answer contextually Romans 3:23, 1 Tim 2:4, and 2 Tim 3:16 I would say let's handle them contextually. lol And go where the Scripture leads us. My suggestion would be to deal with each one, one by one, and begin with their immediate context, and then move outward. I would also apply the biblical principle of interpretation of letting Scripture interpret Scripture, and interpreting more obscure verse in light of more clear verses.

    And with the particular verses you mentioned, defining the semantic range would probably be a part of the meaning of the passage, but not the whole meaning. Paul teaches that all Scripture is God-breathed. This is statement as to the nature of Scirpture, as opposed to what is not Scripture. What books ARE Scripture is another discussion, but that if it is Scripture, then it is God-breathed. That which is not God-breathed is not Scripture. The Apocrypha is not God-breathed, therefore it is not Scripture. But ALL Scripture is God-breathed.

    The context supports the semantic range of ALL in 2 Tim 3:16 to refer to each and every Scripture. In the other verses you mentioned, it may not be the case. I would need to look them up and work through them each. We can do that if you like?
     
  7. donnA

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    You do see instances in scripture where 'all' is not all inclusive, meaning every single one.
     
  8. Ed Edwards

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    It is really fairly easy, if one is NOT a Black&White-ist. There are shades of grey and colors for that matter.

    ALL = each and every member of the specificed (or understood) set

    The 'all' in Hebrews 11:13 refers to the set of those Saints (generally Jewish/Israeli sainats) who died for the faith less Enoch who didn't die.

    IMHO 'all' in 2 Timothy 3:16 means each and every one of the Bibles: the NASB, NIV, KJVs, HCSB (Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/), etc.
     
  9. ReformedBaptist

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    Hey Ed,

    How can this be when 2 Tim was written in Greek almost 2,000 years ago? Could you explain further?
     
  10. TCGreek

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    As you demonstrated with Enoch in Hebrews 11, do the same with 2 Tim 3:36 and consider context.
     
  11. Ed Edwards

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    God can do it with His hands tied behond His back:

    Rev 22:6 (NIV):
    The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

    2 Peter 3:1-2 (ASV):
    This is now, beloved, the second epistle that I write unto you; and in both of them I stir up your sincere mind by putting you in remembrance;
    2 that ye should remember the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and the commandments of the Lord and Saviour through your apostles:

    Revelation 22:9 (ESV)
    but he said to me, You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.

    Hebrews 1:1-2 (nKJV):
    God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
    2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

    Romans 16:25-26 (HCSB):
    Now to Him who has power to strengthen you according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the sacred secret kept silent for long ages,
    26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic Scriptures, according to the command of the eternal God, to advance the obedience of faith among all nations--

    Evidently God wanted us to know His prophets speak for Him. Evidently God wants us to know that God has put His Words, Written by the Prophets, written for God -- God has put His Words into the various parts of the Bible, various books of the Bible, various Chapters of the Bible, various verses of the Bible. One would think a true Bible reader (who doesn't get stuck on one and only one book in one and only one version of one and only one Bible and one and only one language) wouldn't get messed up on the things important to God.

    Strange that the stuff about handling snakes is only found in the disputed passage (of the RT) in Mark chapter 16 only - the stuff about God speaking to all of us through His prophets for our profit is ALL OVER THE BIBLES: multiple versions, multiple translations, multiple passages. Yes, God preserved His Holy Written Word lots of ways.
     
  12. ReformedBaptist

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    Ed,

    That has to be the strangest application of 2 Tim I have encountered in 15 years of following Jesus. :laugh:

    All Scripture = All Bibles

    wow

    I disagree btw. Not that our English translations aren't the Word of God. But that Inspiration (God-breathed) refers to the original MSS and original languages. Not translations.
     
  13. PrimePower7

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    "All Scripture inspired of God..."

    That's how some versions read leading the reader to believe there is some Scripture that is not inspired of God. But if "all" means "all kinds", then this is a realistic view.

    Merely saying, "We know that 'all'means "each" because I cannot fathom God only inspiring some Scriptures" is emotional and irrational at best, and dishonest at worse.
     
  14. ReformedBaptist

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    But all must be defined by the context. All in the context has reference to Scripture, and all Scripture is God-breathed. But not all writings, such as the Apocrypha, is God-breathed. Nor are the upanishads or the qur'an, which may be called Scripture, but is not God-breathed. If someone wants to go in that direction, then they have departed from orthodoxy.

    All Scripture is inspired of God, namely the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments. The text is describing the nature of Scripture, not the extent. To have a discussion on the extent of Scripture, or the canon, is another subject.

    By your last statement are you denying that any part of either the Old or New Testaments are not God-breathed?
     
  15. ReformedBaptist

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    Perhaps I am misunderstanding your reason for writing this to me. Maybe your not writing it to me? In a previous post on the verse discussed I wrote,

    If your referring to my comments to Ed, his application of 2 Tim to all Bibles is unwarranted and really has not Scriptural basis. When the Bible is referring to Scripture it is not referring to any translation of Scripture, but that which was immediately given to the prophets and Aposltes, in the original manuscripts and in the original languages.

    This is not to say that translations are not the Word of God. But they are not that which God, God-breathed. If we say this we admit the error of KJV-onlyism, or in this case, Every-version-onlyism. The Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy is a great example of defining inspiration and inerrancy, and especially needed in our time of apostacy. Consider,

    Article VI
    We affirm that the whole of Scripture and all its parts, down to the very words of the original, were given by divine inspiration.
    We deny that the inspiration of Scripture can rightly be affirmed of the whole without the parts, or of some parts but not the whole.


    And Article X
    We affirm that inspiration, strictly speaking, applies only to the autographic text of Scripture, which in the providence of God can be ascertained from available manuscripts with great accuracy. We further affirm that copies and translations of Scripture are the Word of God to the extent that they faithfully represent the original.
    We deny that any essential element of the Christian faith is affected by the absence of the autographs. We further deny that this absence renders the assertion of Biblical inerrancy invalid or irrelevant.

    For the full statement, see http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/chicago.htm

    I hardly see how this is either emotional, irrational, or dishonest.
     
  16. ReformedBaptist

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    Ha! As I finsihed this I just realized that I recieved my book for seminary on Inerrancy by Geisler. How ironic! :laugh:
     
  17. Deacon

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    "All" means 'all' in Timothy
    ... the weakness of the verse however is that Paul doesn't exactly define what constitutes Scripture/writing.

    The previous verse does touch on it a bit.

    ...from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    2 Timothy 3:15 NASB95

    The early church fathers often didn't work with the full canon
    (of course that's different than when my wife say's I'm not working with a full deck),
    ...at times they called some of the Apocryphal writings Scripture.

    Rob
     
  18. PrimePower7

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    Actually...

    ... by my last statement, I am trying to get us off the of the podium ranting what is or is not "orthodox" and take the Scripture at face value...if it is possible for "All" to be "all kinds", then both are (whether "orthodox" or not) reasonable translations in the context.
     
  19. ReformedBaptist

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    I do not think its a reasonable translation to render it all kinds. The word being translated could have the meaning of "all kinds" but that would depend on the context. And the context does not give that kind of semantic range to the word. That's the point. To translate it "all kinds" in my opinion would be to distort the meaning of the verse.
     
  20. Tom Butler

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    It's generally agreed that context determines the interpretation of a scripture passage. It is also true that some scripture passages are clear and unmistakable in their meaning, and do not require further context.

    Here are some passages where "all" obviously doesn't mean every person without exception:

    A great number:

    Matt 14:35 "And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all that country round about; and brought unto him all that were diseased;...." Not everybody, but all the diseased.

    All kinds and classes:


    Luke 2:10 "And the angel said, fear not, for I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people."

    Acts 13:10 "He (Saul) said (to Elymas the sorcerer), O full of all subtlety and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?"

    Romans 15:14 "And I myself am also pursuaded of you, my brethren, that ye are fujll of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able to admonish one another."

    (All knowledge? The Roman Christians knew everything?)

    All with obvious exceptions
    :

    Acts 2:47 "....praising God, and having favor with all the people...."

    Romans 8:32 "He that spared not his own son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely gives us all things?"

    (Of course, God has not given us everything--thank goodness)

    I Cor 10:33 Paul says, "Even as I please all men....."

    Everybody in a certain class
    :

    Luke 3:21 "Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus, also being baptized, was praying, and the heavens opened....."

    Romans 5:18b ".....even so, by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men unto the jjustification of life."

    Colossians 1:28 "...(Jesus Christ) whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus."

    Thse passages, then, obviously do not refer to every one without exceptiion, but every man without distinction. All kinds, from "every nation and of all tribles and peoples and tongues." (Rev. 5:9)
     
    #20 Tom Butler, Jul 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 15, 2008

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