Allowing Calvinism to block support

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by stilllearning, Aug 20, 2011.

  1. stilllearning

    stilllearning
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2
    I am a IFB, therefore when our Church supports missions, it’s done on an individual bases.
    (We don’t let some far away board, tell us who to support or decide who gets the Lord’s money).

    As a local Church body, we invite missionaries or prospective missionaries into our Church, to preach and tell us about the field that God is calling them to.

    Then we as a Church body, seek God’s will as to whether or not He would have us to take them on for support.

    This isn’t always perfect, but it’s the best way to support missions.
    --------------------------------------------------
    With that in mind a dozen or so years ago, a man came to our Church who was called to minister to the deaf.
    He was a nice enough guy, who truly had a burden for those who can’t hear.

    But....as he preached and presented his calling to our Church, he repeated the same statement a couple of times, that really bothered us.

    He said.......
    “Send me to the deaf, because if I don’t go....some of them will end up in Hell and not know why they are there!”
    --------------------------------------------------
    As I have said many times, I am not an expert on Calvinism:
    I just know enough about it, to know that I am not one!

    Therefore this statement, may not actually be of Calvinistic origin:
    (It just sounds like something a Calvinist would say.)

    But the fact is, God’s righteousness dictates that people know(at some point in their life), that they are rejecting God, for them to be sent to hell.
     
  2. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,439
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am not an expert on calvinism, but it doesn't sound like a Calvinist to me. I've never known a calvinist who would not have ascribed to people in hell the knowledge of why they're there. On the other hand, they are quite strong about the fallen nature of man and his responsibility for his end.

    I may be mistaken, but a Calvinist would say that the same God who unconditionally elected a person to heaven would also have established the means by which that person would be saved.

    I think it sounds like he heard it some where, thought it sounded good and started using it.
     
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,379
    Likes Received:
    728
    No...it does not sound like something most Calvinists would say, or write.
    Calvinists know and understand that Jesus saves everyone of the lost sheep.
    If a person fails to present the gospel to one of God's elect.....God will have another servant minister to that person at another time.
    However most calvinists I know are very aggresive to obey the command to preach the gospel to all men.
    God 100% guarentees that each person for whom our Lord died...will be savingly drawn to Christ.;
    Still learning .....read some solid calvinistic men before you make up your mind based on mis-represented positions and caricatures of the truth.

    http://www.founders.org/library/dagg_vol1/all.html

    http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/home.php

    http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/classic.htm

    If you have any specific questions about it ...I will help if possible.
     
  4. stilllearning

    stilllearning
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2
    I have reconsidered why, I feel drawn to attribute this to a Calvinist.
    It is because of the T in TULIP; “Total depravity”.

    I have heard them say(it seems like countless times), that an unsaved man has absolutely no knowledge of God nor interest in Him.

    This false concept, seemed to be at the heart of this man’s statement.
    --------------------------------------------------
    I place the deaf in the same boat as everyone else.

    When they become aware of God’s existence, they have the same choice that every other human being has ever had.
    To either use the light God has given him and get more light;
    Or....reject that light and be plunged into more darkness.

    Now certainly a deaf person might have a more difficult time finding more light;
    But God will bless his desire!
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,379
    Likes Received:
    728
    Still

    I must drive more now...but will try and post something that will be good food for thought on this later on tonight......

    It is not that the unsaved have "no knowledge" of God.
    It is that they are truth suppressors....they hold down, twist, and pervert the true knowledge ...that can only be savingly understood by divine illumination.







    I will post more later on....:type: I think I came across something that will be helpful to you.
     
  6. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    Your minister friend appears to be resorting to manipulating you or shaming you into supporting his ministry to the deaf. I'm wondering why somebody in your church didn't challenge him on his statement.
     
  7. Don

    Don
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2000
    Messages:
    10,542
    Likes Received:
    208
    Because, unfortunately, this is a "tried and true" tactic. Being IFB myself, and having been a member of 7 different IFB churches, this is not the first time I've heard of such a maneuver.

    I've been teaching my kids to pay attention to what they hear a pastor say; for example, they attended a youth retreat where a young man talked about the strict requirements for the guards for the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier; never mind that it took me 3 minutes to look up those requirements, and find out that it's a load of baloney. My goal is not to have my children question their church leadership; it's to get them to compare everything against scripture, search out the truth for themselves, and ensure that what they're hearing and being exposed to is backed by the Word.
     
  8. mandym

    mandym
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,991
    Likes Received:
    0
    So who does?
     
  9. stilllearning

    stilllearning
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2
    As I said in the OP........
    After hearing a missionary preach in our Church, “we as a Church body, seek God’s will as to whether or not He would have us to take them on for support.”

    So to answer your question......we try to let the Lord make that decision!

    As for this particular individual, he was never taken on for support by our Church.
    --------------------------------------------------
    We(as a local Church), take “supporting missionaries”, very seriously.
     
  10. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nothing in what that missionary said was Calvinistic. I believe he simply was saying they aren't being reached, and his heart was to reach them. I think you and your church are incorrect in your judgment altogether. There may be some Calvinist missionaries you are supporting and you may not be aware of it. We support missionaries who preach the Gospel, whether or not they are Calvinistic in belief.
     
  11. stilllearning

    stilllearning
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2
    Good morning preacher4truth

    Our decision not to support this missionary, had nothing to do with the possibility of him being Calvinistic, but(on the surface), it was because of his dishonesty, in trying to manipulate us as a Church into supporting him.

    I said “on the surface”, because our ultimate goal in praying over every decision, is to let the Lord decide for us.
    --------------------------------------------------
    But you have brought up a good point.
    Should we automatically disqualify any missionary, simply for being Calvinistic?

    Calvinism in itself is not evil; It’s simply foolishly following a “man-made” set of suppositions.
    You can be a Calvinist and love the Lord and be used by God to minister to others.

    You will just be “limited” in some ways, by your theology.

    What I mean is; Your belief that man doesn’t have a free will, might prevent you from ministering to people in a meaningful way.
    (In trying to effect their will!)
     
  12. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    You saying your decision not to support him due to Calvinism betrays your thread title. It is also betrayed by your OP. This is true even though you try to veil it with "(on the surface)" as up above.

    I saw nothing manipulative, but perhaps a burden to reach the lost.

    Calvinism isn't foolishly following a man, as I and others embrace DoG who have not employed works of Calvin or others to come to these conclusions concerning these truths. Also to those who do study, or have studied reformed theologians, and have concluded the teachings correct, this study does not make them followers of men at all. Simply God has shown some of us these truths in Scriptures first hand, some of us found them out through looking at a reformed theologians works, and through this some have embraced the truth contained therein. Jonathan Edwards himself would be one who struggled with the teachings, and specifically with Sovereignty and then embraced them fully himself. For you to call this, and those who believe these things foolishness is unwarranted and uncalled for brother.

    Also there is no need to say that what one believes about freewill keeps one from meaningful ministry, and that if they are Calvinist it "limits" them, fair enough? No need for the personals innuendoes from you here.

    My belief that man doesn't have a freewill doesn't prevent ministering in a meaningful way. What motivates me is that the elect are out there and that they will be brought into the fold through the preaching of the Gospel. So as a matter of fact, contrary to your deficient understanding and false assumptions, others and also my acceptance of the DoG/Calvinism/Reformed theology has rather enhanced our ministering and preaching of the Word of God.
     
    #12 preacher4truth, Aug 21, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2011
  13. stilllearning

    stilllearning
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2
    You are right preacher4truth; I was out of line calling Calvinism foolish.
    I apologize.

    As for bringing people to Christ....Doesn’t this require presenting the Gospel to a person and receiving a response back from them?

    If so.....does not that require a “free will” on their part?
    --------------------------------------------------
    It would seem like a “True Calvinist minister”, would only minister to fellow believers, and totally bypass evangelism all together;
    Because with “unconditional election” and “irresistible grace”, the need for evangelism disappears.

    Or am I seeing it wrong?
     
  14. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    No problem. Actually, belief in election, being chosen, bondage of the will, other DoG's are serving a purpose opposite of anti-evangelism. The false notion of being ant-evangelistic is rampant enough, and comes along with the term "hyper-calvinism" being incorrectly applied to all persons who accept Reformed theology.

    Read 2 Timothy 2:8-10, and take notice for whom in wording exactly (v. 10) Paul suffered and preached the Gospel, to see this specific group come to Christ. Note also how many times Paul refers to his recipients as elect, as also Peter, others.
     
    #14 preacher4truth, Aug 21, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2011
  15. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    Calvinists also believe that God is pleased to save through the foolishness of preaching.

    And Jesus clearly taught that "my sheep hear my voice."
     
  16. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,199
    Likes Received:
    611
    Interesting quote and quite believable as being Calvinistic. I say that because I attended a Calvinistic Baptist church for a while and I remember the pastor saying, "There are elected people in foreign countries that haven't heard the gospel yet and we've got to reach them for Christ."
     
  17. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Which would make the pastors statement true, none saved are non-elect. His statement also has support within 2 Timothy 2:8-10, and shows this is exactly how the apostle Paul felt, and in essence is the same thing this pastor you've alluded to allegedly said. It amazes me to this day people have problems with this Biblical truth.

    What the missionary said at SL's church had nothing to do with Calvinism whatsoever. You attempt to make his statement as Calvinistic by your "because I attended a Calvinistic Baptist church for a while and remember the pastor saying?" Whatever this pastor said doesn't retro back and make the missionary at SL's church Calvinist, as there is absolutely no connection whatsoever between the two.
     
    #17 preacher4truth, Aug 21, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2011
  18. J.D.

    J.D.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    8
    The statement in the OP is not calvinistic in any way whatsoever, but it is thoroughly manipulative and unsupportable in any theological system.
     
  19. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    Quote:

    I see nothing Calvinistic about the statement. It is as non-Cal as you can get.

    Your pastor's statement is not an explicitly Calvinist statement. The statement is true, however.
     

Share This Page

Loading...