Am I rightly dividing the word of truth?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, Jul 7, 2012.

  1. percho

    percho
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    John 14:16,17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; The Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    Who will receive it?

    John 15:16,17 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. These things I command you, that ye love one another. Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    Why will it be given? Must something take place in order for the promise of the Holy Spirit, the Comforter to come, be received and or given? What?

    John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth;-- It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    About how long after Jesus made this profound statement was it, that Jesus went away? I say less than twenty four hours.

    Did the, you have not chosen me but I have chosen you, receive the Holy Spirit, the Comforter because Jesus went away or was it because of something that they believed? I say the former.

    Did they receive the Spirit straight from God the Father or through Jesus? That is it was first given to Jesus and then it was shed on them?
    I say the latter.
     
  2. Winman

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    Well, Jesus himself said, "I will send him unto you." Seems pretty clear to me.

    As far as who should receive the Spirit, we are plainly told that those who believe should receive the Spirit.

    Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
    39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    Again, clear as day, those who believe should receive the Spirit.

    No man is spiritual until he receives the indwelling Holy Spirit. Until a man receives the Holy Spirit he is "in the flesh".

    Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    No man is spiritually alive until the Holy Spirit DWELLS IN HIM. All scripture clearly shows that a person receives the Holy Spirit after believing. Therefore the natural man can believe and receive the Spirit wherein he is regenerated and becomes a "spiritual" man.
     
  3. Catalyst

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    It doesn't say WHEN you receive the Spirit however. Many claim they get it at the altar call. Other's say the Baptism is required and you get it when you come up out of the water.

    Scripture says, IF you are indwelled by the Spirit, you are no longer in the flesh. I'm not sure about any of you, but I can't make that claim yet.

    Most people argue, "I know I have the Spirit, but I'm still in the flesh so that can't be true." And that kills a conversation, because how can you argue scripture with someone, who uses their personal desires to interpret scripture, and not let scripture affect their personal desires.

    The Spirit works on all of us. But ON is not IN, and there seems to be a lot of folks that claim the have a prize they can't produce.
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    the Holy Spirit comes into us, and seals us, at the exact moment one receives jesus by faith, and is reborn from above!
     
  5. Catalyst

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    Ok, I'm fine with that. Now, you need to define "the moment one receives jesus by faith". As I was saying, some say the altar call, some the baptism, when is that?

    Scripture says when the Spirit indwells you, YOU ARE NO LONGER IN THE FLESH. Do you still have a sinful nature? If you still give into temptations you are not yet indwelled by the Spirit. That's what BIBLE says. I'm not there yet. Having to admit that was the hardest step of faith I ever had to take. Took about two years and roughly 800 hours a year on the topic. And that was only to get started. :|
     
  6. Yeshua1

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    the time when the sinner accepts/receives/believes unto jesus as His saviour!
    And remember that even when the Spirit indwells us, we still have our sin nature/principle/flesh, so the Christian has been reborn, has the Spirit, but also still sin priinciple at war against new nature and the Sprit!
     
  7. Catalyst

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    Ok, the answer for when was rather unspecific, but I get it, its really tough to know when someone really believes, vs just rationalizes.

    But the sinful nature til you die myth, is pure fantasy. Paul was no longer in the sinful nature, rom 7%, if the Sporot of God indwells you, you are no longer in the flesh, romans 8:9, the body of sins, of the flesh, is removed by Christ at some point in the walk, described as a circumcision done by Christ, not man"s doing.

    So, if you, like me, still have a sinful nature, the Spirit does not yet indwell you.

    I'm not making claims about you, I don't know you and can't make claims. I have presented hypothetical information, to draw a biblical exemplary conclusion.
     
  8. percho

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    Seals us for what?
     
  9. percho

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    My thoughts and understanding of scripture.

    Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    Christ died for us, in other words he paid out penalty of eternal death, however we still die in the flesh even after having been given the Holy Spirit.

    Who is given the Holy Spirit? Everybody who wants it/him? Everybody who walks an aisle and or is water baptized?------How about! Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call. Romans 8:28,29,23 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

    I asked Yeshua1; Sealed for what?

    Paul knew he had been a sinner. Called himself the chief sinner, I think. He even after having received the Spirit of God struggled in the flesh, therefore he asked the question: Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? And he answered himself Verse 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Why did he say this? Because he knew what he was sealed for, deliverance from the body of this death. Eph. 1:13,14 YLT in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth -- the good news of your salvation -- in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory.

    That is what one is given the Holy Spirit as a seal for. In Romans 6:23 Paul calls it the gift of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    What does through mean? Does it mean it was given to him and he will pass it on to us? Heirs and joint heirs with Christ. Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; How and why? and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    BTW: Believers are those called by God given the Spirit of God and moved from unbelief unto belief.

    If one can not see that in the quote unquote conversion of Paul and the statement of Jesus in John 10:26,27 then they will always believe that they, have on their own become believers, therefore saving themselves.
     
  10. Catalyst

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    Mental embalming, a slow pickling of the brain until all that remains is curt cliches, not actual thoughts of faith. :) there is a verse that says the Soirit seals us, people throw it around smugly like they knew what it meant when they ususlly don't. This guy might, however.
     
  11. Catalyst

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    That was well done, ty. If someone was really called and answwred the call, then lived as called, they coul no longer give into temptation. Anyone who can, and claims to be acalled one are posing,

    Peul mentions his struggles with the fkesh in Romans franed with the IFs to show itshypotheticals, and not him. To say its paul, you have to ignore the IFS

    And it requires paul stating before the explanation that he was not in the flesh.

    You say......
    That is what one is given the Holy Spirit as a seal for. In Romans 6:23 Paul calls it the gift of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    What does through mean?
    ///////\\\\\\

    But rom 6 doesn't show when you get the H.S. nor when you believe? The verse is a summary vers of 6;22. The holy spirit seals that sanctification. You are freed from sin/ atonement.
    You begin the be a slave to God/ obedience (see vs16).,
    Not that you succeed at obedience, but from the trials and tribulations of that struggle, you receive a BENEFIT, and that benefit leads to sanctification. And then the Spirit seals the deal. Once He's there et fait accompli.

    After the spirit indwells you, scripture explains you will be s spiritually mature as Jesus the Christ was.

    Not many of us can claim that yet. Those that can probably won't know, because they are content and busy and don't know.

    You brought up.....
    Paul knew he had been a sinner. Called himself the chief sinner, I think. He even after having received the Spirit of God struggled in the flesh, therefore he asked the question: Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? And he answered himself Verse 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Why did he say this?
    ---------------x
    If paul was not speaking I. A historical present tense in Roman's 7, 2nd half, then he's talking out of both sides of his crazy mouth. In 7:5 he's no longer in the flesh. There are big ifs in the 16/20 vss conversations that are hypotheticals, not him personally. He's describing to the immature audience, milks, what happens to thr meats in the church. He's going to lead them on a race, they need to know where they are going to run.

    That will make a good fun chat, paul wasn't in the flesh...... and see who will consider thoughts they didn't create.......

    You said....

    BTW: Believers are those called by God given the Spirit of God and moved from unbelief unto belief.
    -------------
    That isn't a believer, that is a mature believer. And if you are there you CAN NOT sin, is what the Greek says. If the spirit indwells you can't give in to temptation, and you will no longer be in the flesh. To claim you have that seal, but not those changes in your life makes you wrong, and scripture right.

    You said.....
    If one can not see that in the quote unquote conversion of Paul and the statement of Jesus in John 10:26,27 then they will always believe that they, have on their own become believers, therefore saving themselves.[/QUOTE]
    ––---------

    If you won't admit paul was no longer in the flesh, when he wrote romans 7, then they are selectively reading scripture for what they want it to say/ and shouldn't be making such obvious claims against scripture.

    Agreed? :)
     
  12. percho

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    ––---------

    If you won't admit paul was no longer in the flesh, when he wrote romans 7, then they are selectively reading scripture for what they want it to say/ and shouldn't be making such obvious claims against scripture.

    Agreed? :)[/QUOTE]

    The law showed us, flesh and blood humans, to be the sinners we are, who in the flesh were condemned to death. The death of Jesus translated us from being condemned in the flesh, unto death to having a lively hope by the grace of God in raising Jesus from the dead. Even with the gift of the Holy Spirit of God we are still flesh and blood and except the Lord return will die as such. However we will be dead in Christ having died being indwelt with the Holy Spirit and whether dead or alive: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Rom. 8:11 for by the Holy Spirit we are in Christ.

    The flesh of Romans 7 is the very same flesh and blood of 1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    Scripture does not speak of dying and going anywhere. It speaks of inheriting the kingdom of God. We are heirs (not yet inheritors) of God and joint heirs with Christ. It speaks of being born into the kingdom of God. Here is scripture which speaks of Jesus as having inherited.
    Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    When did he inherit a more excellent name?

    Jesus is the firstborn from the dead and those who God has given the Holy Spirit the believers who have the Spirit of adoption as sons of God will when conformed to the image of the Son of God will be born as he was. Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many (so born)brethren.

    In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    That is when flesh and blood is no longer flesh and blood.
     
  13. percho

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    ––---------

    If you won't admit paul was no longer in the flesh, when he wrote romans 7, then they are selectively reading scripture for what they want it to say/ and shouldn't be making such obvious claims against scripture.

    Agreed? :)[/QUOTE]


    Sorry double posted somehow.
     
  14. Catalyst

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    Ummm Ok but you pretty much avoided the issue.

    Romans 7:5 Paul was not in the flesh. Skeleton or sinful nature is gone, one or the other. Either way, your claim earlier that we are in the sinful nature always is not scriptural.


    Good thing we aren't always in the flesh then. Right?

    The way it happens is romans 8:9 the flesh nature is gone, the Spirit indwells. If you still have the flesh, the Spirit has yet to indwell, and the change is not yet complete.

    Well, you have a dilemma. If you think the word FLESH, SARX in greek always means flesh and blood, you have two or three places where the Sarx is missing from a living human being. That's just non sensical. This is one of the things the NIV got right, SINFUL NATURE is the way to perceive it. It's the only way scripture doesn't look third grade stupid.

    IF YOU HAVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT you are not in the flesh, if that Spirit indwells you, vs works on you, leads you from the outside. If you disagree take it up with PAUL it's his words exactly as he intended it. It's not me making stuff up.

    Yup. now go back and read 8:9. And tell me how Paul got it wrong?

    Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. NASB

    Rom 7:5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in [fn]the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

    Rom 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [fn]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
    NASB

    Col 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

    There are three examples of a living person with no flesh. That's a dilemma for your views.

     
  15. prodical son

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    life before animation,you are born of the spirit first,perhaps sometimes simotainiously,or at the same time but the spirit MUST be there "you hath He quickened who were dead in sin".
    The key word being DEAD in sin, not carnally dead, but spiritually dead.
    Just as a person who is naturally dead, a person who is spiritually dead CAN NOT! do anything at all!!
    faith,belief,or any other spiritual work,action,or what ever else one would call it.
    CAN NOT!!! happen with out spiritual life!!
    "The natural man recieveth not ---,"neither can he for the scriptures are spiritually diserened(Understood)" point being the spirit must be there before any thing spiritual can happen.
    If that is the case then that individual is already a child of God,and therefore already saved for heaven, by the Grace of God through the Blood of Christ.
     
  16. Winman

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    You are the one who has a problem, scripture says Jesus came in the flesh (sarx).

    1 Jhn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    The word "flesh" here I have highlighted in blue is the Greek word "sarx", look and see for yourself.

    Your NIV says Jesus had a sin nature!

    The NIV got it wrong! The MVs do not say the same thing as the KJB.
     
  17. percho

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  18. Catalyst

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    Ok, you declare I'm wrong and don't address my reasoning at all. Are you all crazy? That's not a debate, or even a conversation. Its a bunch of hard headed people walking around trying to see who's yellow line in the snow is longest.

    You can believe what you want. But if you are right Paul and others were walking skeletons out of a dungeons and dragons movie. If you are going to stick to that theology rather than adopt your beliefs to fit scripture, we have gone as far as we can go. We idealogically see scripture as different things. I trust it as written and reconcile tne verses that seem to contradict, and you ignore the inconvenient vss and pretend they aren't there.
     
  19. Catalyst

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  20. percho

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