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America ~ in Crimson Red

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by I Am Blessed 24, Oct 10, 2004.

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  1. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    America ~ in Crimson Red is a book authored by Jim Beller.

    Subtitle: Our Heritage: The Forgotten Baptist History of America

    Anyone read it?

    Comments?
     
    #1 I Am Blessed 24, Oct 10, 2004
  2. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    No. I'm intrigued by the George Washington story; I've been unable to find a credible source for it and would like to see what Beller has come up with.
     
    #2 rsr, Oct 10, 2004
  3. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    Jim Beller is speaking at our church in November on the subject, "Our Baptist Heritage". I am buying his book then.

    I will let you know about 'George'. :D
     
    #3 I Am Blessed 24, Oct 10, 2004
  4. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    I have not read this book, but many like it. If it weren't for Baptists, we wouldn't have the bill of rights in our constitution.
     
    #4 Daniel David, Oct 10, 2004
  5. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington New Member

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    This is correct, God bless the Baptist!
     
    #5 Terry_Herrington, Oct 11, 2004
  6. aefting

    aefting New Member

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    What is the George Washington story?
     
    #6 aefting, Oct 14, 2004
  7. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Briefly, there is an old story that Washington was baptized by immersion by John Guano, the pastor of the First Baptist Church of New York, who was serving as a military chaplain.

    The story, so far as I can tell, is unsubstantiated.


    A PUZZLEMENT
     
    #7 rsr, Oct 14, 2004
  8. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    Jim Beller , author of America-In Crimson Red will be at our church November 16th. That is also my birthday and I am asking hubby for a copy of that book as my present!

    The fliers put in our bulletin say:

    DO YOU KNOW:

    about Obadiah Holmes , the man who, in Boston, MA, in 1651 received 30 lashes for preaching baptism by immersion after salvation?

    about Shubael Starnes , the forgotten Baptist preacher who many have been the greatest preacher in all of America's history?

    about the revival that led to the Bill of Rights being included in our Constitution?

    about George Washington being immersed as a believer by Baptist Pastor John Gano at the end of the Revolutionary War?

    about the relationship between Baptist pastor John Leland and James Madison ?

    "Ignorance of our heritage is not bliss. It is spiritual self-destruction."
     
    #8 I Am Blessed 24, Nov 8, 2004
  9. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    This isn't the same Jim Beller with the looney-tune KJVO sites, is it?

    Noticed that two of the preachers endorsing this book were Dennis Corle and Jack Trieber. Both those names would make me run THE OTHER WAY.
     
    #9 Dr. Bob, Nov 8, 2004
  10. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    I have no clue Dr. Bob. I have the book in my possession, as of this afternoon, and I can see no endorsements.

    The Preface is by Pastor Jeff Faggart, Harvest Baptist Church, Baptist History Preservation Society and the Foreward is by David L. Cummins, Deputation Director of Baptist World Mission, Decatur, Alabama.

    This James R. Beller is a native of St. Louis, MO. He has pastored the Arnold Baptist Tabernacle in Jefferson County, MO since 1987. His church has also planted three other churches in the St. Louis area since 1994.

    He is also the author of "The Soul of St. Louis" and "Baptist History Workbook" along with several booklets on doctrine and church planting.

    It is in memory of American Missionary, Pastor John Kelly, martyred while attempting to help found a New Testament Baptist Church in Baghdad, Iraq, February 14, 2004.

    §ue
     
    #10 I Am Blessed 24, Nov 8, 2004
  11. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    David Cummins was a colleague of mine in the pastorate in a neighboring church and I highly respect him. That speaks well of the book.
     
    #11 Dr. Bob, Nov 8, 2004
  12. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Sue said:

    "Ignorance of our heritage is not bliss. It is spiritual self-destruction."

    No disagreement with that; I am just wary that we may be learning something that's not true.

    Among the blurbs you mentioned, the only one I take issue with is the Washington story.

    The Obadiah Holmes story is well attested; John Clarke (who was among two other people arrested with Holmes) put together the eyewitness evidence in his "Ill Newes from New England," a landmark in Baptist history in America.

    Shubal Stearns is indeed a facinating case, a great leader of the Separate Baptists (New Lights) and prolific church planter. (His career crosses the path of Gano, who was sent to the South by the Philadelphia Baptist Association in an attempt to regularize the rambunctious new Baptist churches.)

    There seems little question that the growth of the Baptists in the South greatly contributed to support for the Bill of Rights.

    The relationship between John Leland and James Madison also is documented. Leland's thinking about religion and politics closely mirrors Madison's. In addition, it is believed that Madison's views on the subject were formed from visits to Williamsburg, where he witnessed Baptist preachers who had been jailed for proclaiming the gospel.
     
    #12 rsr, Nov 8, 2004
  13. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    From the book:

    "In 1996 Margaret Gano Redpath, the Great, Great, Great, Great, Granddaughter of John Gano offered William Jewell College "The Family Sword".

    George Washington had received it from Marquis De LaFayette; in turn, he bestowed it on John Gano, the first chaplain of the Continental Army. History records George Washington gave the sword to John Gano after he baptized Washington in the Potomac River.
     
    #13 I Am Blessed 24, Nov 18, 2004
  14. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    At this point, asking Whose history records this? is a fair question.
     
    #14 Squire Robertsson, Nov 18, 2004
  15. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    There are too many references to list right now, but here is one of them. The Barnes Papers were predominant.

    Barnes also had a note in his papers which stated:

    The Examiner, Feb. 20, 1908. Cut of oil painting of Gano baptising Washington, made by order of Rev. E.T. Sanford of North Church, Massachusetts.

    He "employed French and German artists to paint the picture representing baptism of G.W. in the Potomac River." Desk of Gano in home of C.V. Sanford, Mrs. Mary Forbes Gano, Bryan Cobb of New London, Indiana, daughter of Daniel Gano, John Gano's son, said (97 yrs old June 11, 1901), that her father was a witness of the baptism of G.W. - Barnes Papers.
     
    #15 I Am Blessed 24, Nov 18, 2004
  16. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    In other words, we have no contemporaneous record of the act. Nor do we have any records outside Gano family tradition. That is not to say the your references are not valid. They are not however in my opinion the best evidence. Unless, there are other wittnesses to the act.
     
    #16 Squire Robertsson, Nov 18, 2004
  17. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    This is a large book and I'm just getting started, but many references are cited.

    One is, "Was General George Washington Baptized" by Chaplain John Gano. The 'happening' is recorded in the Archives of the American Baptist Samuel Colgate Historical Library, Rochester, New York.

    I'm not sure why a chaplain would lie about something like this, but I have no clue how to get the 'low down'.

    Who challenged the story to begin with?
     
    #17 I Am Blessed 24, Nov 18, 2004
  18. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Me for one. I am playing devil's advocate on this point. Remember the Biblical standard is two or three wittnesses and for the moment we only have one. And I am not calling the Chaplian a liar. As far as I am concerned, he counts as one of the wittnesses. Now is there another?
     
    #18 Squire Robertsson, Nov 18, 2004
  19. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    I don't know, but I have still have over 500 pages to read - so we shall have to wait and see... [​IMG]
     
    #19 I Am Blessed 24, Nov 18, 2004
  20. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    "Who challenged the story to begin with?"

    I guess that would be me. The painting certainly exists; it's in the (what else?) John Gano Memorial Chapel at William Jewell College.

    There are various accounts of the story of the baptism, some of which are obviously spurious. The verification is alternately from his son, himself (I doubt that is correct, but I don't have access to his memoirs) or from Washington's landlord at Newbury.

    The story appears in some Baptist histories, but historians Thomas Armitage, David Benedict (who has a lengthy biographical sketch) and John Christian do not mention the story.

    I think there is plenty of evidence that Washington respected Gano, but I am not convinced that the baptism story has provenance.

    Still sounds like an interesting book.
     
    #20 rsr, Nov 18, 2004
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