America 'still conservative at its core'

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Revmitchell, Nov 8, 2008.

  1. Revmitchell

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    ......He also notes what he calls a troubling trend among younger evangelicals. "Younger evangelicals think that all that matters is an experience with Christ," he says. "This is what led to Modernism a century ago that almost finished the church because we felt that we didn't have to live by the revealed truth of scripture."....


    More Here
     
  2. gb93433

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    Jesus never called anyone to be conservative but radical. Christianity and following Christ is radical, not just conservative theology or conservative practice. When Matthew was called to follow Jesus he left his job and everything else to follow Jesus. What Matthew did was radical not conservative.
     
  3. LeBuick

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    Sounds like he tought his disciples to be sorta liberals...

     
  4. Revmitchell

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    Giving to the poor is not liberal. Using poor stewardship to give to the poor is liberal. Government is not the answer and it is a fallacy that conservatives do not give. In fact we give more on a personal level than libs.
     
  5. Baptist Believer

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    If you read past that quote, you'll see that Jesus pointed out to them that there are more important things than merely giving money to feed the poor.
     
  6. Pastor Larry

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    This is a misappropriation of the word "conservative." It reminds me of political slogans ... It is a cute saying, but doesn't address the issue.

    The word "conservative" is not opposed to radical. It means to "conserve." Conservative theology is the effort to conserve the teaching that has been passed down to the church through the apostolic revelation of Scripture. It has nothing to do with not being radical.
     
  7. gb93433

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    Poor people have been around since God created.Some will leave their condition with a little help and others will stay the same becausde they lack motivation. Everyone should learn what it is like to be poor though. When one experiences poverty they learn more about God and what really matters.

    There are always exceptions but if you give, then you give more than most conservatives too. It is the poor to middle class you give the most. If the truth be known, you would quickly learn that typically the wealthy do not give much. They are tippers. It is the average and below who actually give the most.

    So many conservatives sitting in churches today have never discipled anyone. That is living like a practical atheist. That is being "lukewarm". They have right theology on paper called creedalism but lack a proper practical theology of obedience.

    More pastors have been fired while preaching through the book of James. If a pastor wants to draw crowds then preach through Revelation. If he wants a dynamic church then lead people to live like Jesus and his disciples. The religionists do not like it when a pastor hold them accountable and to live in obedience to Christ.
     
  8. Revmitchell

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    ...........................................................................................
     
    #8 Revmitchell, Nov 8, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2008
  9. gb93433

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    Radical Christianity must grow out of a proper theology. A proper theology is an action lived out by those who have a proper theology. A proepr theology that is merley intellectual is not a proper theology. A theology of Christ and God that is not radical is not a proper theology and can be conservative and powerless.

    The problem today is that people take pride in being "conservative" when Jesus called people to come follow Him. Following him is radical, not conservative. To use your definition of conservative in conserving the teaching passed down through the ages is not at all conserving anything. To verify something as true is not the same thing as living it out. Conserving something is not the same as radical.

    No place in scripture do I see any message about following Christ connected with being conservative in action or thought. Do you really think when Jesus turned over the tables that he was being conservative? The world is not offended by conservatism. It is not offended by prayer meetings. It is not offended by churches. They are offended by those who get in their way through action not just "conservative" theology that is dead. They do not like evangelistic Christians who get in their way. Churches do not have much power in their communities through conservatism. Churches have power by boldly proclaiming and living the Christian life not by conservative theology that is passive and focuses on the past.

    The gospels speak about dying not conserving. A seed that becomes a tree dies. It conserves nothing. It grows.

    I have not ever heard one excuse about being conservative and how it requires such sacrifice and cost, but I have heard many (as Jesus did) about following Him.

    I can easily remember the day a lady came to me when I was pastoring and told me about the books a teacher at the local high school was requiring her students to read. The books were vulgar. She mentioned that not one church except her home church would stand with her in pursuing the issue. Almost every pastor I contacted would not stand with us. One by one each pastor gave all kinds of excuses. When pressed they told me that they did not think their church would stand with us. The fact was that those pastors were "conservative" and preached the right stuff, but when it came time to stand they did absolutely nothing. That is an example of conservative versus radical Christianity in action. Do you really think those "conservative" churches stood for righteousness? The fact was that they were powerless in their community. They just existed.

    The Jews were conservative in their theology but they were not living a life of righteousness and glorifying God.
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    Of course, but how do we know what theology to believe? By conserving what was passed down to us.

    It is impossible to truly follow Christ without being conservative in the sense that I have used it here. If you are not conserving the truth of Christ, you are compromising it and thus presenting a false gospel. You may be radical, but Karl Marx was radical too. The idea is not to be radical, but to follow Jesus.

    Yes it is, by definition.

    True, but my words did not address this.

    True again, but irrelevant.

    Perhaps you don't know the Scriptures well, or do not know the Bible well. Think of Jesus talking to the Pharisees who had exchanged the doctrines of God for the teaching of man. He was blasting them for their failure to conserve what had been handed down to them. When Jude writes his epistle, he is writing about conserving the faith once for all handed down to the saints. That is theological conservatism.

    Yes, he was conserving the teaching of the OT on teh temple.

    It speaks of both.

    This mixes your metaphors. Don't do that.

    The attempt to conserve the teaching cost prophets their lives from Abel to Zechariah (to quote Jesus). It costs the apostles their lives as well.

    Cute story, but you haven't given enough details to draw any conclusions.

    No they weren't conserving theology. Remember, the Pharisees were the ones who added to theology, not conserved it. Read Matt 23 and see how our Lord excoriates them for not being conservatives. He blasts their adding to Scripture.

    So again, my point is not that we shouldn't be radical. We should. You, quite frankly, are not radical enough for my tastes, but that's between you and God. I think we should be radical. My point is that radical is not the opposite of conservative. You are mixing your categories.
     
  11. donnA

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Christianity
     
  12. donnA

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Christianity
     
  13. rbell

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    Riiiiight. I'm finding lots of instances where Jesus told His disciples to give money to the Roman government so the poor would be taken care of.

    It's all over the place in the YGBKMV (You've Gotta Be Kidding Me Version).
     
  14. LeBuick

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    So I understand, God doesn't want us to use the government to help the poor but he does want us to use the government to stop abortions?

    Is there a list of when God wants us to use government verses when God doesn't want us to use the government?
     
  15. Revmitchell

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    Yet another failed comparison. Apples and refrigerators

    Nice try but no go. There are three issues with the government intervention.

    1. Libs present government intervention as if it is the only way to handle taking care of those in need. This is false.

    2. Libs present government intervention as if refusing to support it is a refusal to give to the poor. This is false.

    3. Government intervention is poor stewardship in the worst way.

    4. Government intervention takes choice and freedom away from individuals who are quite capable of deciding for themselves who to be benevolent to.
     
  16. gb93433

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    [FONT=&quot]
    We must always go back to the Bible and interpret it in light of its historical context. That has remained the same and never changed. That is not conservative but rather interpreting scripture in light of its historical context. That is the reason why I choose not to waste my time reading all kinds of syst3e4matic theology books on what another write but instead study the historical context of scripture.
    [/FONT]
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    Yes Marx was a radical and he greatly influenced the world with his error. How can Christians who are fearful, passionless, and lack boldness have a great impact? I am simply unable to find anything in scripture or throughout history where those who lacked boldness had much influence. In fact those in scripture prayed not for opportunity, but boldness. Is that not being radical for eternal purposes? Do you not think that those who gave their life for Christ was just conservative theology? That is radical Christianity.
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Just make a cursory reading of the gospels and show me one verse where following Christ is about conservatism as you narrowly define it. When Matthew was called by Jesus he left his work to follow Christ. He went from a nice, secure, comfortable job to follow Jesus. That was against all the world had to offer. Matthew sought to follow Jesus who had none of the world’s securities. Matthew took the risk of going against the world and religious leaders of the day. That is radical Christianity not conservative theology.[/FONT]
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    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Read you Bible again in Jude 3 "Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints."[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    That is not theological conservatism in the sense of formaldehyde Fred, but radicalism. His appeal is not just to be a passive conservative but to contend earnestly for the faith. Conservatism is the dead faith of Formaldehyde Fred. Obedience makes it alive. Too many “conservative” Christians are in practice theological atheists. If conservatism worked then it would be working in America. The conservatives and liberals lie in the same bed, just on opposite ends. Both live like practical atheists and are just as dogmatic about their theology. The problem is that both are wrong because they are not obedient to the God who is. The God who is encompasses far more than the Bible. He is eternal and infinite but man’s conservative theology is finite. Following Christ calls for action to follow Him not just conservative theology. Lots of people have Bibles in their homes while leading a life of disobedience. Over the years of being in business I have seen those who go to fundamentalist Bible believing churches who claim to be conservative while cheating their customers. They have conservative theology and live like practical atheists. They talk all about God and claim to have right theology but have no fear of Him. That is what conservative theology breeds. Obedient radical Christians are not liked by those kind of conservative Christians.
    [/FONT]
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    That is radical Christianity in obedience to God not some man-made conservative theology. It extends to far more than those who advocate conservatism.
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Actually it is a sad story of pastors who claimed to be conservative in front of their fellow pastors and congregations but lacked enough boldness to be effective in the community. Which part did you need to have more information about? [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
     
  17. Revmitchell

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  18. gb93433

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    Enlighten me.
     
  19. LeBuick

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    Rev, it is not apples and fridges. Either government should intervene or they shouldn't. You can't say they intervene for your cause but not mine. Either they do or the don't.

    1. No, I believe it is ONE way not the ONLY way which is true. It is ONE way.

    2. Wrong again, either government should intervene or it shouldn't. You say it's ok they intervene for your cause but not mine???

    3. Probably, but we need to do something for the poor who are not receiving much help otherwise.

    4. Exactly the same argument the pro-choice people say

    Jesus showed us the heart of the average man when he told us about a rich man who wouldn't as much as toss a beggar who sat daily at his gate a zip lock baggie with the crumbs that fell from his table. He instead let his hired help vacuum up those crumbs and thrown them out in the trash.

    The 3% increase Obama is putting on the upper half is not taking one bite of food our of their mouth, it is more like taking the spoon full of peas of their plates. The spoonful they were going to throw out anyway. Yes, I think it's a shame we have to force that spoonful of peas away from them and maybe in the process wrongfully take peas from some who were giving to the beggar at their gate. But the beggars at may gates are starving if we don't intervene.

    Keep this in mind, the rich man didn't go to hell because he ate well or because he dressed in fine clothe. He went to hell because of the way he treated the beggar. There is no way to be right with God and wrong with your fellow man.

    I JN 4:8
     
  20. Revmitchell

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    Says who?

    uh-huh

    NO, you have placed my point in a context I never did. Where did you ever get this standard that it is all or nothing. Passing laws to protect life is not the same as mishandling providing for the poor. Why is that so hard to get. You are being rather silly.

    Why are they not receiving help? To many do not want to do what is necessary to even get help, such as going to the office to apply for it. Unless you have been there and lived with them ( I have) your assumptions are wthout credibility.

    Abortion is murder. To bad libs do not get that.

    Where in that passage did Jesus say this was the heart of the average man? Nice Exegesis

    Well if you believe that is the begining and the end of it then I have ocean front property to sell you in Montana.

    You have taken that passage out of context. The pharisees thought that they were right with God and their worldly success was evidence of that. That is the context fo that passage. Using that passage for any other context fails.

    If you really believe that Lazerus went to hell because of the way he treated the begger then you have a clear misunderstanding of the doctrine of salvation and are in need of it yourself.
     

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