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Americans can leave Episcopal Church but stay Anglican

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Taufgesinnter, Aug 5, 2003.

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  1. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    This is too funny. [​IMG]

    The following is from the link that you provide in your own profile. ;)

    "More than four centuries ago in Zurich, Switzerland, a new fellowship of Christian believers was formed. The Roman Catholic Church had become unspeakably corrupt. Martin Luther had separated himself from it but had continued the practice of infant baptism. Ulrich Zwingli also had separated from Romanism, but continued to grant to the political rulers the right to decide the policies and practices of the church.
    The new fellowship, led by Conrad Grebel and Felix Manz, was formed to give men and women the opportunity to follow the Lord Jesus Christ according to the whole Word of God, the Bible. The group, hunted and persecuted at first, was mockingly called "Anabaptist" because of their rejection of infant baptism and the practice of believers' baptism. "

    Your link - anabaptist.org says that anabaptists came out of the reformation - four centuries ago. [​IMG]
     
    #21 trying2understand, Aug 5, 2003
  2. Taufgesinnter

    Taufgesinnter New Member

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    If you read the link I provided then it should make it clear. We hope for the day that the Orthodox return to Rome after there break in communion.

    There is only one Pope and he is the head of the Catholic Church and all those in communion with her.


    LaRae     </font>[/QUOTE]And the Orthodox hope Rome ends its schism with the one holy apostolic catholic church and returns the pope to his place as one patriarch first among equals with those of Antioch, Constantinople, Moscow, et al. They also hope that in doing so, Rome will stop violating the rulings of the first and only seven ecumenical councils such as its illegal addition of filioque to the Nicene Creed.

    But we can't all have everything. [​IMG]
     
    #22 Taufgesinnter, Aug 6, 2003
  3. Taufgesinnter

    Taufgesinnter New Member

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    This is too funny. [​IMG]

    The following is from the link that you provide in your own profile. ;)

    "More than four centuries ago in Zurich, Switzerland, a new fellowship of Christian believers was formed. The Roman Catholic Church had become unspeakably corrupt. Martin Luther had separated himself from it but had continued the practice of infant baptism. Ulrich Zwingli also had separated from Romanism, but continued to grant to the political rulers the right to decide the policies and practices of the church.
    The new fellowship, led by Conrad Grebel and Felix Manz, was formed to give men and women the opportunity to follow the Lord Jesus Christ according to the whole Word of God, the Bible. The group, hunted and persecuted at first, was mockingly called "Anabaptist" because of their rejection of infant baptism and the practice of believers' baptism. "

    Your link - anabaptist.org says that anabaptists came out of the reformation - four centuries ago. [​IMG]     </font>[/QUOTE]Non sequitur so far?

    Anabaptists are part of the Radical Reformation, not the Protestant Reformation. We are neither Catholic nor Protestant because we reject the magisterial system set up during the fall of the church under Constantine and stand for the absolute biblical separation of church and state and all that that implies, such as rejection of pedobaptism. For details, see Leonard Verduin, Anatomy of a Hybrid: A Study in Church-State Relationships (Eerdmans), or his other work, The Reformers and Their Stepchildren. Another good work on the subject is by Franklin H. Littell, past president of the American Society of Church History, The Anabaptist View of the Church.
     
    #23 Taufgesinnter, Aug 6, 2003
  4. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    With what denomination did the individual people who became anabaptist, four hundred years ago, identify with prior to the Radical Reformation?
     
    #24 trying2understand, Aug 6, 2003
  5. Taufgesinnter

    Taufgesinnter New Member

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    With what denomination did the individual people who became anabaptist, four hundred years ago, identify with prior to the Radical Reformation? </font>[/QUOTE]Before they as a faithful remnant left it, most of them belonged to the Catholic institution.
     
    #25 Taufgesinnter, Aug 6, 2003
  6. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    As I said, prots.
     
    #26 trying2understand, Aug 6, 2003
  7. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    According to anabatist.org it went like this:

    Zwingli (a reformation protestant) split from the Church

    Grebel and Manz split from Zwingli

    Conclusion - yours is a protestant church
     
    #27 trying2understand, Aug 6, 2003
  8. Taufgesinnter

    Taufgesinnter New Member

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    As I said, prots. </font>[/QUOTE]No, we do not believe in infant baptism, and the corrupt Constantinian church-state system that characterized original Protestantism, with its wars and oaths. We left the state church of Zurich in January 1525, and that church did not abolish the mass by order of the city council until April so it was technically still Catholic until then. But I'm willing to drop this because you are using the epithet Protestant (actually the insult Prot) under a different definition. I'm going by doctrine and theology, whereas you are labeling anything that is neither Orthodox nor the church of Rome in schism from them as Protestant.

    But would you mind cutting out the name-calling, please? The rude derisive smileys are bad enough. If you are going to mislabel me a Protestant then call me a Protestant, not a Prot; I don't call Catholics Romish or Papists or Romanists or call Moslems Mohammedans because it's nasty.
     
    #28 Taufgesinnter, Aug 6, 2003
  9. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Not all Protestants practice infant baptism. That would not be the defining characteristic. It has to do with history and the origins of your church.
    The church of Zurich was Protestant. That your church came from it shows that your church is protestant.

    The Protestant Reformation continues today. The legacy is a never ending series of split offs of churches. Your church is one of them.


    It is a matter of historical record.

    Your church had a start in a particular point in time. It was formed by identifiable individual people who previously belonged to another church which them came to disagree with. So they split off and started another church.

    I am sorry if it is hard for you to hear.

    Perhaps you should look a little more deeply into the information at anabaptist.org (click on "history"). It's all there.

    If they are offensive to you, why do you choose to use them when posting to others?
    I will be happy to call you a Prostestant.

    BTW, no doubt you are aware that "Catholic institution" is offensive to some Catholics, but I notice that you use it often.

    If your feelings are hurt by this very mild exchange which we have entered into, perhaps this forum is not the place for you.
     
    #29 trying2understand, Aug 6, 2003
  10. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    Why not? Don't they belong to a Christian sect headquartered in Rome? Aren't they loyal to their head man, the Pope?

    How can they be called "Catholics" when they reject so many of the universal teachings of the Church Catholic?
     
    #30 John Gilmore, Aug 6, 2003
  11. Taufgesinnter

    Taufgesinnter New Member

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    Not all Protestants practice infant baptism. That would not be the defining characteristic. It has to do with history and the origins of your church.

    It is characteristic of magisterial Protestantism--all their original state churches and their immediate offspring (Lutherans, Reformed, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Puritans, and Methodists). All of those but the Methodists were strictly magisterial.

    The church of Zurich was Protestant. That your church came from it shows that your church is protestant.

    I already explained the history. Zurich did not end the mass until April 1525.

    It is a matter of historical record.

    Your church had a start in a particular point in time. It was formed by identifiable individual people who previously belonged to another church which them came to disagree with. So they split off and started another church.

    Only in the local sense, of course.

    I am sorry if it is hard for you to hear.

    No, I fully recognize that a faithful remnant pulled out of apostasy; I was quibbling over labels.

    Perhaps you should look a little more deeply into the information at anabaptist.org (click on "history"). It's all there.

    Um, I'm a historian. I've taught this stuff at university.

    If they are offensive to you, why do you choose to use them when posting to others?

    If you mean (as I did) using animated laughter in conjunction with phrases like "This is so funny" aimed at serious statements, please show me where I did so. I don't deny it out of hand, I just don't recall it. I usually use inanimate smileys, to indicate I'm kidding, or no hard feelings, or laugh at intentional humor, that sort of thing. I'm not easily offended by a smiling face, but derisive laughter is another thing.

    I will be happy to call you a Prostestant.

    BTW, no doubt you are aware that "Catholic institution" is offensive to some Catholics, but I notice that you use it often.

    Usually when I use it I'm anticipating an utterly arrogant "we're the only true church" comment and am being a bit pre-emptory, or responding to such a comment. I also use the initials RCC, the words Catholic, Catholicism, and the phrases Roman Catholic, Catholic church, Catholic Church, and Roman Catholic Church. People who are trying to be offensive use the term institution pretty consistently I think. But I'll think about my usage.
     
    #31 Taufgesinnter, Aug 6, 2003
  12. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    As far as the original post of this thread says, I think this is great. There are many people who see themselves as Anglicans and don't want to betray a church that has betrayed them.

    Now they have the opportunity to be free of the direction their American church is taking them, but stay true to their identity!
     
    #32 Eladar, Aug 6, 2003
  13. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    You bring up a really good point. Many of us see our denominational affiliation as part of our identity. As such, it's not all that easy to just jump ship in search of another boat. I do applaud those of any denom or faith who seek to remain within their denom, and change it from the inside out. Not only is there often opposition to change from within, but often opposition to remain from the outside.
     
    #33 Johnv, Aug 6, 2003
  14. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    There are other options for Anglicans seeking to get away from the Episcopal Church USA. Not only the AMIA as mentioned earlier but other conservative Episcopal groups,

    The Reformed Episcopal Church http://www.recus.org/

    The Charismatic Episcopal Church http://www.iccec.org/index1.html
     
    #34 Kiffin, Aug 6, 2003
  15. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    When you stand before the Lord Apostolic succession will be so, so unimportant. Your destiny will be based on whether or not you know and love Christ. You will stand alone and answer for your faith or lack of it.
     
    #35 Ray Berrian, Aug 6, 2003
  16. Dale McNamee

    Dale McNamee New Member

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    Dear Kiffin,

    Thanks for posting the link to the Reformed Episcopal Church http://www.recus.org ,which my wife and I are members of. I was going to post it myself! [​IMG]

    To those who aren't familiar with the Reformed Episcopal church,it's an excellent site for learning about its beliefs,history,and doctrinal stands. Please check out the "Sexual Ethics" link,where a strong stand is taken against homopsexuality,fornication,and adultery. [​IMG]

    In Christ,
    Dale
     
    #36 Dale McNamee, Aug 7, 2003
  17. Dale McNamee

    Dale McNamee New Member

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    #37 Dale McNamee, Aug 7, 2003
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Dale, I think the reformed church needs to get some "equal time" on programs like Fox news "The Factor".

    Now is the time for the "alternative" to politically-correct-at-any-cost-to-scripture - that is being practiced by one group - to present itself to the public.

    Notice that in all cases - the compromise is being argued in the form of "loyalty to the club" - not in the form of "holding to scripture with integrity".

    The positions in defense of the gay priest - are taken "in spite of the Bible statements on that practice" - not "because of it".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #38 BobRyan, Aug 7, 2003
  19. Barnabas H.

    Barnabas H. <b>Oldtimer</b>

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    Folks, you don't seem to follow the "New Policy" on posting topics containing sexual material. You have violated the posting rules by offering "sex" as a topical discussion outside of the password-protected forums. In this case see the offending words: homosexual & gay... :(

    "New Policy" ruling: http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=000174

    For this reason I shall close this thread. Please do not try to open a new one with the same subject, as it will be deleted. Use the Men's or the Women's private forum for similar subjects. Thank you! Barnabas, your friendly BB Administrator [​IMG]
     
    #39 Barnabas H., Aug 11, 2003
  20. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer Active Member
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    #40 Clint Kritzer, Aug 15, 2003
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