Amillennialism Debate - Part Four

Phillip,

Perhaps a most “simplified” explanation might be see though the picture of an hourglass laid horizontally instead of vertically. I can't draw it here but you can easily draw it for yourself. The best I can do for a graph here would be this;

.................. I>=<I ................

The horizontal drawing composes two sections to it with a narrowed center.

A- The left side is the Old Testament.
B- The center is the Cross.
C- The right side is the New Testament.

A- The extreme left (the Old Testament side) "I" is the Fall of Adam and Eve which resulted in expulsion from the Paradise communal living with God in the Garden of Eden - but only for an unspecified period of time. Then there is also Genesis 3:15 showing the promise of a Messiah that would return man to this Paradise state once again at the restoration of all things at the end of the world.

- The ">" contain:
..…the setting up of the Nation of Israel for the location of that Messiah to be born in,
......the lineage of a people that that Messiah was to be born into,
......the establishment of the Law and the Prophets that pointed to,
.......…."who" that Messiah would be,
.....…..."what" that Messiah's purpose was,
....…...."when"that Messiah would come and the signs of his coming,
....…...."where" that Messiah would be coming from,
....…...."why" that Messiah was coming
....…...."how" that Messiah would fulfill all those things as promised from Genesis to the Cross, and back to the re-newed "Garden of Eden."

B- The center (the Cross)"=" is the fulfillment of 99% of those Old Testament signs and promises. Those OT signs and prophecies “MUST” be filtered through the “eyes” of the Cross – or the neck of the “hourglass” picture. It is this “neck of the Cross” that Christ fulfilled as Messiah/ Savior/ Prophet/ King/ Lord, and anything else prophesied of him.

It is this “neck of the Cross” in the hourglass picture that only Amillenialism filters the OT prophecies through rigorously before taking a position on. It is to verify whether there is still unfulfilled OT scripture left or if was fulfilled at the time of Christ in the 4 gospels, Acts and the Epistles.

C- The right “>” is the New Testament revelation of the who, what, when, where, why and the how of the Law and the Prophets and revealed-

………the continuation of the “called out ones/ the elect of God/ the remnant Israel of God etc. by giving them a new name when expanding to include all believers Jew or Gentile which would cover that symbolical period of time of a 1,000 years. This newly named “Christian Church” group of the New Covenant would also undergo trials and tribulations in their wilderness period as did in the past OT period. The NT elaborated on,

……….the future prophecies elaborated on for how the Kingdom of God would be “restored” to the Paradise of God (the New Jerusalem) in the New Heavens and the New Earth and ,

……….what the “signs of the times” would be like just prior to his Second Coming we should expect to see.

The extreme right “I” is the Last Day when Christ appears on clouds of glory,
……………the resurrection of all mankind occurs,
……………the separation of the just from the unjust occurs,
………..the judgment of the unjust occurs and they go into eternal punishment.
……………The judgment of the righteous occurs and they go into eternal security. (the rapture of the church)
……………The earth and its elements are burned with fire – as in the flood but with fire.
……………The New Jerusalem descends to the New Heavens and the New Earth/ Paradise of God and things forever will be the same as they were before the fall in the Garden of Eden.

Thus, is my interpretation of the Amillenialist view of the Bible.

This turned out to be a bit much more than what it started out to be but I may “refine” it later.

[ March 07, 2005, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: covenant ]

 

DeafPosttrib: "But, I believe Matt. 24:15-21 is still yet to come is future event"

Amen, Brother DeafPosttrib -- Preach it!

Ezekiel 35-48 appears not to have
happened on OT times, or at the 30AD
Cross nexus. Lot of prophecy there.

 

DeafPosttrib: "I understand that Ezekiel chapter 40 to 48 is a heavily spiritual and figurative meanings filled of Ezekiel's vision."

Yes, an 100 years ago people said that about
Ezekiel Chapter 37 - the prophecy of
the Valley of dry bones. Yisrael, the
country, sits there today a testimony
AGAINST that line of prophecy interperation.

 

Covenant, understand that this is my viewpoint amd may be different from that of other amillennialists. Examine first Matthew 24:1-3:

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Notice that in verse 2 Jesus Christ states: See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Now notice the response of the disciples in verse 3: And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying,

[1.] Tell us, when shall these things be? and

[2.] what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Please notice that there the disciples asked a two part question. It is my opinion that Jesus Christ answers both these questions in Chapter 24. Part of Chapter 24 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and part refers to the return of Jesus Christ at the end of the age or on the Last Day, whichever you prefer.

I will not attempt to exegete the entire chapter since people have written books to do so. However, I believe that there is one passage in particular that refers to the destructiuon of Jerusalem in 70 AD, that is verses 15-22. My rationale for this opinion is that it would be foolish to give people the advice given in those verses if the events described in 2 Peter 3:1-13, which describes the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, are taking place.

Incidentally it is a historical fact that those Christians in Jerusalem were warned to flee Jerusalem [verse 16] before Rome destroyed the city.

 

Deaftrib, I have held up your last post to review the rules with the moderators. I will PM you.

 

I hereby boycott this topic. The a-mills don't
need my help to fall flat on their face.
The a-mills don't need my help pointing out
their errors.
I'll see you all in the topics of eschatology
that I advocate.

 

Old Regular,

I've been busy for a bit but I do agree with what I think you are saying about 70 a.d. being a two-fold "picture" (I guess is the best word for it).

I was always taught that 70 a.d. was an "example" that reflected the same messages in the pictures of the Flood. One, was of a judgment, wrath, and punishment nature on sinful man and the other was of salvation and deliverance for the faithful - same picture with two implication. One literal and one symbolical.

Perhaps I should post this over in the Preterist debate too? I don't know enough about Preterism.

 

Ed Edwards keeps complaining because no one is posting on this thread so I will oblige him. Amillennial doctrine is true to Scripture. Dispensational doctrine is not true to Scripture but to Darby/Scofield.

Well let me back up a little. Dispensationalists of today argue that the Church is not prophesied in the Old Testament yet Scofield in his original Reference bible stated that the Song of Solomon was an allegory showing the love between Jesus Christ and His bride, the Church. The New Scofield Bible has deleted that statement. Supposedly they do not believe in any allegorical interpretation of Scripture though not all agree

 

WOW! Are you sure about that? That is EXACTLY what the JW's do in their Kingdom Interlinear Bible. They actually have meetings where the "door-to-door" walkers report on the scriptures that peoples use on them while they are witnessing to them. They take notes and send them to Headquarters. Headquarters then comes out with an "updated" version a few years later. I collected their books for awhile and showed them to a girl once. She couldn't believe it! That should make anyone question the dispensationalists material since Darby.

 

Where are the Dispensationalists?

 

Which part of this are you having problems with?

Let the a-mills display their ignorance on
this topic.
Let the dispies have back the Dispensationalist
topic. Let the subject of the RAPTURE
topic be THE RAPTURE.

Because i don't own this Forum, i can't
MAKE anybody adhere. But it is hard for
visiters to find the instering conversation
when the title of the topic and the
subject of the topic are totally different.

What really torques my jaw is that nobody
has yet defined a dispensational belief
that they believe in the dispensational
topic but everybody tells dispies what
they believe (AKA: build strawmen) and tear
the belief (that nobody believes) to bits.

Anyway, this is the wrong topic for me.
I don't own a book called "Debating a-mills
For Dummies" which gives statement by statement
counter arguments to a-mills. I may write
one someday, if the Lord taries his pretribulation
rapture/'resuurection.

 

Ed,

You missing trailblazer or something? I've been waiting to watch the head-to-head debates!

 

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO SAID IT!