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Amnesty International

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 20, 2004.

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  1. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    I was reading their website and looking at information about the organization. Don't get me wrong, they seem like a well intentioned organization and certainly did some good work when speaking out for the human rights of oppressed people like Natan Sharansky and others under Communist rule in the old Soviet Union. However, it seems to me that one of their policies is a bit contradictory to their mission:

    About Amnesty International

    They support human rights, but will not support the political ideaology or system of Democracy which tends to be pro human rights? Why is that?

    They are against human rights abuses, but will not oppose dictatorships and totalitarian regimes as a political ideology or system which tends to not be so concerned about human rights? Why is that?

    Doesn't this policy seem to undermine their mission in a way?

    Thoughts?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #1 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 20, 2004
  2. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    "They support human rights, but will not support the political ideaology or system of Democracy which tends to be pro human rights?"
    "
    This is just a guess.
    Presumably because they try to project an image of neutrality. The moment they openly start supporting Democracy all countries not part of western civilization will denounce them completely as a political tool of it.
     
    #2 mioque, Dec 20, 2004
  3. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    An additional reason is that once you get into the realms of supporting 'democracy' as part of your Mission Statement, you then have the thorny issue of defining the term: an American is likely to come up with a different definition than, say, a Norwegian

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
    #3 Matt Black, Dec 20, 2004
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    They certainly are not neutral when it comes to human rights. So why should they be neutral when it comes to political ideologies that either support human rights or go contrary to them? It seems to me that they need to choose a side. Otherwise, they are speaking out of both sides of their mouths and being counter-productive.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #4 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 20, 2004
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Democracy:

    Is the success of the leadeers directly tied to the well being of the people they govern?

    Are there free and open elections?

    Is there Freedom of Speech?

    Can someone openly criticize their own government without being tortured, immprisoned, or killed?

    Are people allowed to Emmigrate if they are not happy living in the country?

    They don't have to be exactly like America. They just have to have certain Democratic principals which are essential to have human rights.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #5 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 20, 2004
  6. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond Active Member

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    About Amnesty International

    They support human rights, but will not support the political ideaology or system of Democracy which tends to be pro human rights? Why is that?

    They are against human rights abuses, but will not oppose dictatorships and totalitarian regimes as a political ideology or system which tends to not be so concerned about human rights? Why is that?

    Doesn't this policy seem to undermine their mission in a way?

    Thoughts?</font>[/QUOTE]As a very proud supporter of Amnesty International, I can only say that the last sentence you stated is the answer:

    You made two observations above in the quote I reproduced, and both deal more with politics. It's not about politics, it's about human rights. A good example of that is the very scenario you reference: that of "Natan Sharansky and others under Communist rule in the old Soviet Union."
     
    #6 Baptist in Richmond, Dec 20, 2004
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    It still seems to me that this policy indermines their mission in a way and makes them less effective than what they could be.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #7 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 20, 2004
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    BiR and everyone else,

    Would you not agree that basic Democratic principals are essential to having human rights? Stuff like freedom of speech, the right to emigrate, and free elections? Why wouldn't AI want to support these political ideas which are essential to human rights? Further, what principles of dictatorship and tyranny add anything to the prospects of human rights? These political ideologies seem counter-productive to their goal to me. It would seem they would want to denounce a political system which stands in direct opposition to their mission.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #8 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 20, 2004
  9. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    I think they have turned liberal. Just another piece of the puzzle setting the stage for a OWG.
     
    #9 LadyEagle, Dec 20, 2004
  10. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond Active Member

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    Once again, Amnesty International is concerned with human rights. They do not engage in political rhetoric. I am not sure that I understand why you cannot divorce human rights from politics. How does refusing to engage in political dialogue undermine their mission?
     
    #10 Baptist in Richmond, Dec 20, 2004
  11. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Because political systems have a direct effect on the human rights of those being governed. Those who live in governments that allow freedom of Speech, Free elections, and the right to emigrate (principals of democracy) tend to have leaders who respect human rights more often than not. Those who live under dictatorships and tyranny don't. This seems pretty simple to me. Why wouldn't AI wish to encourage democratic principals which are directly tied to human rights and discourage tyranny and dictatorships which are in direct opposition to human rights? Seems counterproductive to me. It would be like a Christian saying they are concerned with the salvation of others, but is not willing to preach the Gospel which leads to salvation and willingly tolerates false teachings which leads the lost to Hell. I don't think you can separate human rights from the political system of a government.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #11 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 20, 2004
  12. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond Active Member

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    But even you must agree that any bona fide political change must be initiated by the population of the country in question.

    Once again, any bona fide political change must come from within.

    As I stated prior to this post, AI is concerned with human rights abuses. That is all. They are not concerned with political power, political change, or any other issue dealing with politics.

    That is abundantly clear, and is a viewpoint that I (and Amnesty International) do not share.
     
    #12 Baptist in Richmond, Dec 20, 2004
  13. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Actually, I believe that the change can come from the outside as well, since in a closed fear society, there is no dissent allowed, and if those from the outside don't pressure the dictator to implement democratic reforms, he will have no incentive to do so.

    I think it is a shame that you and AI do not share the viewpoint that free societies produce societies concerned with Human Rights. It is unfortunate, and part of the reason, I think the orgainzation is becoming more and more irrelevant to its mission today, because they are unwilling to change and confront a poltical system which runs contrary to their stated purpose.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #13 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 20, 2004
  14. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond Active Member

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    That doesn't surprise me at all. If a people do not have the desire to throw off a yoke, someone else cannot do it for them.

    One more time, Joseph:
    The key sentence is the last one.
     
    #14 Baptist in Richmond, Dec 20, 2004
  15. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I think you are spot on, Joseph, to point out that AI refuses to oppose a dictatorship as being antithetical to their stated goal.
     
    #15 KenH, Dec 20, 2004
  16. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Double Post. Sorry.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #16 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 20, 2004
  17. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    That doesn't surprise me at all. If a people do not have the desire to throw off a yoke, someone else cannot do it for them.

    One more time, Joseph:
    The key sentence is the last one.     </font>[/QUOTE]You are wrong. It has been done many times. America freed the Jews and others in WW2. Reagan freed millions of oppressed people from Communism. Bush has freed millions of people from the oppressive regimes of the Taliban and Saddam. Your mistake is assuming that people in fear societies do not want to be free. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #17 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 20, 2004
  18. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond Active Member

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    No, that is not what I said. Here is my quote:
    I did not assume that "people in fear societies do not want to be free." That is a very different statement.
     
    #18 Baptist in Richmond, Dec 20, 2004
  19. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Then why not helped these ooppressed people break out of their fear societies and create a free society?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #19 Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 20, 2004
  20. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond Active Member

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    If a people do not have the desire to throw off a yoke, someone else cannot do it for them. In other words, we cannot help them if they do not want the help, or are unwilling to change their own destiny. Because of this, Amnesty Internation is focused on human rights issues. By your own admission, it worked in some measure in the former Soviet Union.
     
    #20 Baptist in Richmond, Dec 20, 2004
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