Amnesty International

A MURDERER is the ultimate denial of human rights! Letting one live is a denial of human rights.
When you commit a crime you have denied others their rights, and in turn forfeit your own.
Gina

 

Gina,

I know how you feel but we cannot kill people. Eesho will do that in Good time. But, I will say this that one should and can defend themselves when attacked. For example if someone were to attack my wife and kill her, I will not seek revenge, but if I am in the house and that person is armed and wants to kill my wife, they'll have two choices, leave and don't come back, or possibly die. And trust me it's more that possible that they will die, but revenge is not mine to seek, but to love my wife and lay down my life for her is something different.

Ron

 

What about after the slaves were liberated during the time of segregation and Jim Crow laws. Were they, then, a democracy? Or were they not one until after the Civil Rights Law was passed in the 60's? 16-year-olds do not have the right to vote, nor can they legally emigrate without their parent's consent. Does this mean that we are not a democracy? What I'm hearing is that the only democracy that "counts" is your democracy.

But there were still a myriad of human rights violations by the African-American community. Again, who say you about the travesties in India, the world's largest democracy?

Amnesty International is quite effective, partly because it is neutral. What about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights does not go hand-in-hand with a democratic government? There are plenty of other organizations that support democracy and oppose tyranny - Amnesty International chooses to focus on righting the wrongs that exist in the arena of human rights. You may not agree, and that's okay - join another organization that lines up with what you think is right.

Joseph Botwinick [/QB][/QUOTE]

 

So if a person murders another, it should be legal to torture him for 30 years?

Again, with the number of people who were previously on death row who have been exonerated, is this really the best course of action? I surely think not. Give them life in prison with no chance of parole, but don't become a murderer yourself by taking his or her life. That's God's job, not the state's.

 

So if a person murders another, it should be legal to torture him for 30 years?

Again, with the number of people who were previously on death row who have been exonerated, is this really the best course of action? I surely think not. Give them life in prison with no chance of parole, but don't become a murderer yourself by taking his or her life. That's God's job, not the state's. </font>[/QUOTE]Scott, I second that!

 

OK, so I'm one who has very little knowledge of AI; clue me in!

I've heard of the AI (least I think it was AI) stance on the prisoners at Guantanamo, & what I heard was pretty nit-picking. Now I've heard nothing re: the problems in Sudan, China, or any of the truly dictatorship societies.

Have I just overlooked them? If so, please point me to the info. I am certainly open to correction if it's just my oversight. What do they (AI) do/say to repressive gov'ts to halt any abuses? Is there any follow up to ascertain compliance? (Beyond any "official" statements that all's well, of course.) Also, what constitutes "HUMAN RIGHTS " abuses?

Basically what I'm saying is that, absent any conflicting info, I have to agree with Joseph that the whole AI concept is more feel good that substantive.

What is there to "convince" a dictator to acknowledge "rights"; why should he pay any attention to AI?

If the best they can do is point out some "alleged" violations primarily because they can, when the subject prisoners are getting better treatment than they would in their own country, then I have to wonder what their (AI's) real purpose and/or effectiveness is.

Like I said, I'm not that familiar with this org., but if you can point me to some REAL good that they have accomplished in repressive gov'ts, then I'm open to a mind shift!

Till then, it's no more than an anti-USA, liberal, feel-good, fuzzy warm, that that has no basis in practicality; IMHO

 

Romans 13:3-4 </font>[/QUOTE]Please do not misquote Romans 13 to mean we should follow and not speakout or Judge Evil Leaders! In fact, is that not the same verse they use to excuse slavery and national racism! I don't understand you, now you are saying that leaders that do wrong are ordained by God or predestined to do that which they do. Give me a break JB. Are you saying that God made America his higher power over Iraq?

I take offence that you would use MY LORD'S Word to define Bush as Ordained, when he is clearly not because if he were HE WOULD FIX THIS IMMORAL USA BEFORE GOING SOMEWHERE ELSE!

Now if you look at Romans 13 in context, it shows you the LAW of the Higher Powers, and quite frankly Bush has miss the mark on All as President!

JB, I think you should put this Verse on and wear it for Eesho M'sheekha

Ephesians 6
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil .
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers , against the rulers of the darkness of this world , against spiritual wickedness in high places .

We fight Higher Powers all the time against "RULERS" as of many, and not "RULER" refering to one.

This is another scripture that should clear up any misconceptions about Roman 13.

Acts 5
28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

COMMENSENSE SHOULD TELL ANYONE THAT PAUL IS NOT SAYING WE SHOULD OBEY EVIL SATANIC POWERS. SATANIC POWERS ARE VERY HIGH, SO HIGH THAT GABRIEL DID NOT RAIL AGAINST SATAN, BUT, REBUKED HIM IN THE NAME OF EESHO!

Ron

 

So if a person murders another, it should be legal to torture him for 30 years?

Again, with the number of people who were previously on death row who have been exonerated, is this really the best course of action? I surely think not. Give them life in prison with no chance of parole, but don't become a murderer yourself by taking his or her life. That's God's job, not the state's. </font>[/QUOTE]I have no clue how many people were exonerated. I don't trust the system at all, so in that respect I agree that it may not always be clear, but there are plenty of simple and straight forward admitted/caught on tape murders and rapes and self admitted child molesters that the death penalty could be used on. (yes, I believe in the death penalty for more than just murderers)
God has given to us to protect others against evil people? I don't see how jailing them for long periods of time partially at the victims own expense (via taxes) is justified.
I can't imagine Him congratulating a judge on giveing a 7 year old girls violent rapist a few years in jail paid for by mommy and daddy, and saying well done, you protected this child and society.
No way. God's not unjust. We're here to rule over the earth physically right now, God is the spiritual judge.
Gina

 

So if a person murders another, it should be legal to torture him for 30 years?

Again, with the number of people who were previously on death row who have been exonerated, is this really the best course of action? I surely think not. Give them life in prison with no chance of parole, but don't become a murderer yourself by taking his or her life. That's God's job, not the state's. </font>[/QUOTE]I have no clue how many people were exonerated. I don't trust the system at all, so in that respect I agree that it may not always be clear, but there are plenty of simple and straight forward admitted/caught on tape murders and rapes and self admitted child molesters that the death penalty could be used on. (yes, I believe in the death penalty for more than just murderers)
God has given to us to protect others against evil people? I don't see how jailing them for long periods of time partially at the victims own expense (via taxes) is justified.
I can't imagine Him congratulating a judge on giveing a 7 year old girls violent rapist a few years in jail paid for by mommy and daddy, and saying well done, you protected this child and society.
No way. God's not unjust. We're here to rule over the earth physically right now, God is the spiritual judge.
Gina </font>[/QUOTE]Gina,

It's seems to me that taxes are your problem. Why worry about taxes, you clearly paid taxes to support SADDAM and Al QUAEDA at one point! So why not pay for something that God would want you to do, and that is let him take revenge for murders rape etc. Don't you know that they will get the same punishment as a Drunkard and Homosexuals. Do you want to sentence Homosexuals and Drunkards to death? Your reasoning sound man made to me and not biblical.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery , fornication , uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft , hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies ,
21 Envyings, murders , drunkenness , revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If they're not going to inherit the Kingdom, then we know they will inherit the pit! So above in bold, should we kill them as well? I tell you what, if we did 80% of the USA would be on death row. Think about it.

Ron

 

Sure, why not? It would decrease the surplus population...
Ok seriously, it's dumb to support murderers and violent criminals. If other people want to keep them alive at the expense of society then I can't change that, but I can't support it and nothing anybody has shown me from the Bible shows that locking a man in a cage for the rest of his life is just punishment or payment for either the criminal or his victims.
Gina

 

Ok I'll play.

You can't show me where a New Testament Christian is commanded to Kill another Human being, IF, AND, or BUT!

Ron

 

ROM 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

I don't believe that's what this verse is talking about, but most people do...

Here's God advocating the death penalty..

REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Here's Paul acknowledging and affirming the justness of capital punishment:
ACTS 25:11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar.

Jesus gave the OT commandment of capital punishment, and you never see it taken away. Show me where it was ever taken away in the NT. It wasn't. The law wasn't repealed, it came into fulness.


PS: Killing and putting to death are two different things. The term "kill" in the Bible means to murder, to murder is to take someone's life unjustly as in a fit of anger or during the commission of a crime.
Gina

 

Not!

1. Revelation 13 does not advocate the death penalty. In context which you did not show ofcourse. It clearly show that Eesho M'sheekha will cast Judgement on those that did harm the Saints. In no way shape or form does it say that we are to rape a rapist, shoot a shooter! You clearly miss the mark of that one. Let us look at the Patience of the Saints according to the Bible and not your interpretation:

Revelation 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Woop There it Is!

2. Acts 25:11 Paul did not justify capital punishment, and again if you read it in context Paul did not want to go to Jeruselam for something he did not do! Eesho told them not to worry about what to say when they pull you before them to be Judged, because the Holy Spirit will speak for you. This has nothing to do with the Future, and everything to do with him preaching the word that the Jews did not want him to do.

Romans 12:19-20
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil . Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men .
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves , but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

As I stated before, it seems you have a problem with TAXES. The bible clearly states that we should not render evil for evil, he will take revenge for us, and to live peacefully with all. Therefore if it is in you as it was in Eesho, you should want those that sin to have the alternative to the death penalty, which is live in prison. But I forget, your riches (taxes) matter to you than to love you enemy.

Try not to use bible commentary that much, ask God for wisdom and he will give it to you striaght from the book, without bias of another mans word!

Ron

 

Bible commentary? That was strictly the words of the Bible and my own opinion added.
I see we won't disagree. Hopefully you won't try to kill me over it...I WOULD push the death penalty!
Gina

 

Gina, I really respect your opinion, and enjoy reading your posts. I find you insightful and thought provoking. (even funny sometimes!!)

But I must disagree with you on the topic of the death penalty as I am against it.............. so we will disagree in Christian love!!

 

Gina, I'll never try to kill you or want anyone else too. I'll just raise your taxes if I wanted to hurt you personally.

Ron

 

That was low JB, but if I were it would be easier to let the republicans sink their own ship, because this W tax cut is going to have disastrous consequences.

Ron