An Answer to a Question

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by robt.k.fall, Oct 1, 2013.

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  1. robt.k.fall

    robt.k.fall
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    The KJVO movement, as we know it, is rooted in the way the NASV was promoted c.1972. There had been resistance to (for the lack of a better term) the work and methodology of Westcott, Hort and others. Dean John Burgeon is the best known of the 19th century critics. Mind you, the good dean would be shocked and thoroughly upset at the way his name is used to support the KJVO position. The man was a medium to high church Anglican.
    Now, let's go back to the NASV's introduction c. 1972. One of the leading promoters of the NAS was Dr. Stewart Custer of Bob Jones University. Dr. Custer's enthusiasm for the translation did not set well with the many IFBers. His and other conservative evangelical\fundamentalist academics' enthusiasm grated two jet streams of IFBdom.

    One stream would surprise many. Its source was among some (but not all or many) Historic Northern Baptists like David O. Fuller, D.A. Waite, M. James Hollowood, et al. These men saw themselves as the intellectual and academic equals of Dr. Custer and the group he represented. The difference was they had little academic interaction with the faculty at Bob Jones University. This grew from the difficulties of travel and communication at the time. They also rejected the text model of Westcott and Hort. This group followed the thinking of John Burgeon. Looking back on the era, it seems they took the lack of dialog with the BJU supporters of the NASB as meaning their point of view was being disrespected and marginalized.
    Then, there is the stream with which most are familiar. This stream stems from those who had little exposure to the original languages. They took seriously their statements from the pulpit when holding their AV1611 high, "This is the Word of God." These were men who looked at seminary as cemeteries. Historically, many Baptists have not held collegiate or seminary training in high esteem at best and many times thought contrary to the plan of God. The enthusiastic statements by the supporters of the NASB were seen as essentially saying "This version is the latest and greatest. The King James doesn't measure up to this version." This put them in mind of the inerrancy battles they had fought or were fighting for (as of c. 1972) the last two generations with the Liberals, Modernists, and Neo-Orthodox. Suffice to say, the battles ended with bitter results for the Fundamentalists. Also, because of the methods and arguments used by their opponents, Fundamentalists ended up somewhat paranoid on matters of inerrancy and translations.

    Which brings the discussion to how did the descriptor "King James Only" get conflated with Independent Fundamental Baptist? From the first stream, Doctors Fuller and Waite were well known in GARBC circles. Dr. Hollowood was well known in the FBF and taught at Marantha's graduate school. These connections gave them platforms from which to voice their views. D.O. Fuller had the stature to get his trilogy: Which Bible?, True or False?, The Westcott-Hort Textual Theory Examined, and Counterfeit or Genuine? published and widely distributed. Their long term influence was pretty much a side show.

    The second stream's leaders magnified the KJVO influence until it reached far beyond the actual number of supporters. The late Jack Hyles was perhaps the loudest of this stream's leaders. Beginning in the late '60s, he built a large following based on First Baptist Church of Hammond's Sunday School and bus ministry. With the petering out of large scale bus ministries in the mid 90s, Hyles took up the King James issue. With the platform he built over the past 20 plus years, he reached a number of Independent Fundamental Baptist pastors and leaders. His influence ranged beyond those reached by Peter Ruckman. Hyles also laid the foundation for the acceptance of Gail Riplinger's work. He awarded her a Hyles-Anderson doctorate at the 1996 Pastors' School.

    The mixing of these two jet streams led to a perfect storm.
     
  2. prophet

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    The inside scoop on the '96 P.S. is that the Hyles Anderson College staff ostricized their own William P. Grady, who was supposed to headline that week. He ended up sidelined, even though he had published the most scholarly work on the translation issues, Final Authority(with an 80 page bibliography, varied enough to silence any credible critic).
    Instead, drama queen Riplinger, and Al Lacy took center stage, and the lights went off on the movement before it was born.
    Look at anything published post 96, out of Hyles Publications, and you'll find an ignorant nod to the original language 'TR' of Scrivener without any understanding of the real differences in parent documents between the AV and The Nestle-Aland descendents.
    Defeat, snatched from the jaws of victory, and in the Ole Nick of time, sentenced every defender of the Common English Bible to be lumped in with a pack of unstudied yahoos.
    I love how Armitage is even castigated now, and he was the doorman that let the RV in to the Am. Bible Societies. Irony.
     
  3. robycop3

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    Of course, the LACK OF SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT did nothing to enhance the KJVO myth's image. And, as more people saw that Dr. Fuller had DISHONESTLY made no mention of Dr. Ben Wilkinson's CULT AFFILIATION after copying heavily from him, the falsehood of KJVO became more-apparent.

    The roots of the KJVO myth have been laid bare, as well as its inherent falsehood. No one has any real excuse to keep believing or supporting this false doctrine any more.
     
  4. robt.k.fall

    robt.k.fall
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    Oh, yeah

    In my haste to post the OP, I forgot to include the question:

    The question being How did IFBdom become identified with KJVOism?
     
  5. makahiya117

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    Dr. Hills - Harvard University

    Dr. Philips - Yale University

    Dr. Peter Ruckman - the most prolific KJV scholar of all time

    Dr. Gail Riplinger - the most exhaustive research KJV computational linguistics

    Thousands of KJV Holy Bible Pastors

    Millions of KJV Bible Believers

    KJV Holy Bible are the most published, read and loved bible of all time.
     
  6. Rippon

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    He's a laughing-stock. No rational individual here gives him any credence.
    Though even she can't match Ruckman's caustics -GP is a fraud.


    Even more believers around the globe use the NIV. I'm in China. Just a few hours ago some young people were reading from Genesis chapter one in the NIV. The KJV just doesn't cut it with non-English natives in addition to many native speakers who have moved on with more accurate texts.
     
  7. Salty

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    It was at one time - but as other translations continue to sell more

    Yes, millions of KJV's have been SOLD- but how many were bought by organizations and given away? For example the Gideons put Bibles in hotels/motels - how many of they actually get read?
    Also, the Gideons also place Non-KJ Bibles
     
  8. robt.k.fall

    robt.k.fall
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    Regrettably, none of the below answers the question I tried to answer:

     
  9. Yeshua1

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    What is interesting is that even in the times of the "perfect" 1611 kjv edition, many still kept and held to the Geneva as being a superior version!

    also, IF one wnats to say that if a version been bought and used a lot, God is behind it, your Niv version would be the Kjv of modern age, just based upon that sole criteria!
     
  10. robycop3

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    And "Dr." Riplinger's 'doctorate' happens to be an "honorary" title, comparable to a deed to the Brooklyn Bridge or something found in a box of Cracker Jax.

    As for IBF and the KJVO myth, it seems several KJVO authors played upon the fact that most IBFs are 'sola scriptura'.
     
  11. prophet

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    Typical illiterate snip rambling.
    A title to the B.B. would be fake, not honorary. It would not be awarded for some perceived achievement, it would be sold to some unwitting sucker.
    An honorary doctorate is at least as valuable as the credence which the fans of the institution issuing it lend.
    Something found in a C.J. box would be a 'toy surprise', and would be there despite the fact that the manufacturer had no idea who would receive it.
    An honorary doctorate is intentionally awarded to a particular person, the issuing institution knowing full well who.
    The legs of the lame are not equal, so is a parable in the mouth of snip.
     
    #11 prophet, Oct 3, 2013
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  12. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Uhhh ... no. He has a very legitimate point.

    And yet, it is of no value to the recipient beyond the honor of being recognized. While they're a nice recognition and probably look good hanging on the wall, honorary degrees are not "real' degrees." In other words, being awarded an honorary degree is not the same as earning an actual doctorate. In fact, an honorary degree is a degree honoris causa, Latin for 'for the sake of the honor'. They are not used to further one's career, fatten one's bank account or dress up one's resume, though many attempt to use them that way. Jerry Johnston, the disgraced Kansas City pastor, loved to introduce himself and be known as "Dr." but was not, and his behavior indicated he was very short on Christian accountability, a concept any true doctoral recipient would have long ago studied and absorbed (even though it doesn't keep some of them from making the same errors Johnston did).

    If anything, honorary degrees draw more attention to the college or university bestowing the honor since it ties them to the (usually already famous or well-known) recipient. They don't afford any recognition beyond furthering the institution's reputation by associating itself with someone of perhaps greater repute. There is no "accomplishment" associated with an honorary degree. It is purely public relations.
     
    #12 thisnumbersdisconnected, Oct 3, 2013
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  13. prophet

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    An honorary degree can't be compared, legitimately, to a fake deed.
    h.d. -legal, fake deed- illegal
    hd- given for 'perceived achievement'(my actual words. You can't read the hearts of everyone who has ever issued an honorary degree to one of their graduates, can you?)
    Fake deed- sold with the intent to commit fraud, no ESP necessary.
    I could go on, but you should get the picture. It is not an apples to apple's comparison, and symbolic of the mindset of kjvo bashers( as well as most of the outspoken kjvo's I've interacted with as well).
    I'll let you do the Cracker Jacks breakdown on your own.
    In this case, like or dislike N.A.V.o.t.B, it was a valuable side by side comparison tool for many kjvo's who had never cracked an mv. The commentary was needless, IMO, but I've kept a copy as a reference tool.
    She, Gail Riplinger, published a book that sold a certain # of copies. That is an actual achievement. Can you blame Hyles for jumping on the bandwagon?
    It's what institutions do. It maybe an empty honor, outside of a small circle of people, shrinking daily, but it wasn't given for zero effort.
    She spent 7 years producing a book that sold, she got a degree equal to the book.
    When my book outsells hers, I'll pipe up, you know what I mean?
     
    #13 prophet, Oct 3, 2013
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  14. preachinjesus

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    Lol...I think one of our I intrepid moderators needs to check the IP addresses of everyone who has posted here, in this thread, to make sure there are no banned members posting under new pseudonyms.

    Please start with me. :)
     
  15. annsni

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    Not only that but the college that gave her the honorary title also gave it to a horse. So just goes to show the value of that 'doctorate'.
     
  16. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    The horse probably knows more about Bible versions that Riplinger ever will, too. At least it isn't likely the horse's information will be fatally flawed like hers.
     
    #16 thisnumbersdisconnected, Oct 3, 2013
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  17. prophet

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    And the horse didn't ramble on at his acceptance speech, causing Jack Hyles to try to figure out how to shut it up, like G. Riplinger did.
    He did give his opinion of the degree, when he left a pile of dung on the platform.
     
  18. Squire Robertsson

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    PM me who you think the likely suspect is. Otherwise, I have better use for my time. You do realize the Mods are unpaid volunteers?
     
  19. Rippon

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    Oh, so you admit it was purely a money-making scheme for Hyles.

    In other words something hollow.
     
  20. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    ... and tainted.
     
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