An anti-Calvinist conundrum

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Apr 4, 2005.

  1. whetstone

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    If an evil man is bent on killing the President, but it isn't God's will, can this man succeed?

    If an evil man is bent on rejecting Christ, but it isn't God's will, can this man succeed?
     
  2. dianetavegia

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    Wouldn't those be a Calvinistic Conundrum?

    If God hates divorce, isn't any divorce a Calvinistic conundrum since God would have preordained and therefore CAUSED said divorce?
     
  3. JohnB

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    Swish... crack... and Diane hits it out of the park!!!

    The root fallacy of Calvinism is the philosophical, purely philosophical equation of foreknowledge with foreordination.

    Fortunately, God does not call on us to understand how he can foreknow things which He did not foreordain. Just like we cannot understand the Trinity or the Hypostatic Union. But He still works all things for good, even though we mean it for evil.

    This is why scripture always beats philosophy hands down...
     
  4. TCassidy

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    God hates all sin, so are you suggesting that sin is a "Calvinist conundrum?" Don't be silly. Man sins because of his fallen nature. Don't ever assume that God is the first cause of sin. When you mistake God's permissive with His determinate will you create a far worse conundrum. [​IMG]
     
  5. whetstone

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    hmm. why do the Arminians refuse to give actual responses to the questions? :D
     
  6. dianetavegia

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    But according to Calvin's 'teachings' God doesn't give permission but preordains. Accordingly, that would make God the author of all evil.

    Calvinism isn't a conundrum in and of itself. It's purely a canard.
     
  7. icthus

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    I am sure that Calvinism teaches that God preordains all things, and that includes sin! I have asked this many times in my life, and to no satisfaction.

    Here is the bottom line. God ordains or causes us to sin, but then, after we have sinned He holds us responsible for carrying out His preordained acts! What think ye of this? It is very clear to me, that this DOES make God the direct author of sin! Like it or not, this heretical teachimg of the Calvinistic system, actually makes God the author of sin

    Hear J Gresham Machen:

    "When God causes the bringing to pass of the evil actions of men, He does that in still a different way. He does not tempt men to sin; He does not influence them to sin. But He causes the bringing to pass of those deeds by the free and responsible choices of personal beings. He has created those beings with the awful gift of freedom of choice. The things that they do in exercise of that gift are their acts. They do not, indeed, surprise God by the doing of them; their doing od them is part of His eternal plan: yet in the doing of them they, and not the holy God, are responsible" (The Christian View of Man, page 44)

    Can you see the contradictions in the above statement? "God causes the bringing to pass of the evil actions of men". How does He cause this then? Machen does not tell us. Here we have man with a free will! Calvinism has always shouted that man does not have a free will, but here we see a leading Calvinist, whom I have great respect for on other matters, actually saying that man does have a free will. What do you make of that? Then we are told that the sinful acts of men, like murder, rape, mugging, incest, homosexuality, and the worst sins that you can think of, are "all part of God's plan"!!! Does this mean that God's plan is wrong? If God plans that we sin, then how can He punish us for doing what is in His plan? Does this mean that God's plan for mankind is NOT PERFECT? For, since sin is part of His plan, and sin is wrong in God's eyes, then God's plan cannot be perfect! Where can we go from here? To say that God "allows" certain things to take place, is one thing. But, to say that He actually, "causes us to commit sin", and then holds us responsible for carrying out HIS ACTIONS, makes God's system to be at fault. So is the reasoning from the Calvinistic position. I can only conclude that this is nothing short of a great evil! To even suggest that a Holy God, who HATES SIN, would even "bring about (cause) the evil actions of men", is, in my opinion, blasphemy!
     
  8. whetstone

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    But according to Calvin's 'teachings' God doesn't give permission but preordains. Accordingly, that would make God the author of all evil.

    Calvinism isn't a conundrum in and of itself. It's purely a canard.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I have to wonder what you do with verses like Genesis 50:20 ma'am?
     
  9. whetstone

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    Are the events in Revelation preordained to happen? Do the men in revelation sin? Is God the author of their sin simply because He preordained it?
     
  10. icthus

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    Are the events in Revelation preordained to happen? Do the men in revelation sin? Is God the author of their sin simply because He preordained it? </font>[/QUOTE]Do you understant what "preordains" means?

    The dictionary tells me that it means:

    "to arrange something before hand"

    So, you are saying that God arranges that we sin, and yet He is not responsible? This is complete nonsense, and to be honest this whole doctrine as taught by Calvinists is an insult to the God they serve! There is no letting up, this doctrine does make God the author of sin. Unless, of course you are going to re-write the meaning of "pre/fore-ordain" in English!
     
  11. icthus

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    Are the events in Revelation preordained to happen? Do the men in revelation sin? Is God the author of their sin simply because He preordained it? </font>[/QUOTE]Do you understant what "preordains" means?

    The dictionary tells me that it means:

    "to arrange something before hand"

    So, you are saying that God arranges that we sin, and yet He is not responsible? This is complete nonsense, and to be honest this whole doctrine as taught by Calvinists is an insult to the God they serve! There is no letting up, this doctrine does make God the author of sin. Unless, of course you are going to re-write the meaning of "pre/fore-ordain" in English!
     
  12. dianetavegia

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    Genesis 50:20
    Joseph's brothers meant him harm and yet God used that evil plan to save many others because of Joseph's saving up foods.

    In the Old Testament God's foreknowledge is usually represented by the verb yada [[;d"y], which is the normal verb for "know." In the New Testament the main verbs are proginosko [proginwvskw], "to know in advance, " and proorao, "to see what is ahead."

    Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

    Acts 2:23 Though He was delivered up according to God's determined plan and foreknowledge, you used lawless people to nail Him to a cross and kill Him.

    [dy a primitive root
    Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
    Yada` TWOT - 848
    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
    yaw-dah' Verb

    Definition
    to know
    (Qal)
    to know 1a
    to know, learn to know 1a
    to perceive 1a
    to perceive and see, find out and discern 1a
    to discriminate, distinguish 1a
    to know by experience 1a
    to recognise, admit, acknowledge, confess 1a
    to consider
    to know, be acquainted with
    to know (a person carnally)
    to know how, be skilful in
    to have knowledge, be wise
    (Niphal)
    to be made known, be or become known, be revealed
    to make oneself known
    to be perceived
    to be instructed
    (Piel) to cause to know
    (Poal) to cause to know
    (Pual)
    to be known
    known, one known, acquaintance (participle)
    (Hiphil) to make known, declare
    (Hophal) to be made known
    (Hithpael) to make oneself known, reveal oneself
     
  13. Wes Outwest

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    God created the heavens and the earth.

    Lucifer's attempt to usurp the throne of God caused him to be cause down to the earth.

    God created man from the earth, in the very place where he cast the "father of lies".

    Man was placed in "the Garden", where God and man walked and talked together and really enjoyed each other's company, God told man that he could eat whatever, EXCEPT the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Imagine that, God established something forbidden to man, the Tree of knowledge and the tree of life, even telling the man there were consequences of death, something that the first man on earth had absolutely no knowledge of, for eating the fruit thereof.

    Then lo and behold, enter the serpent (Ever wonder what the serpent ate that made him last so long?) to beguile Eve the helpmate to Adam, and "persuades" her with, "just take a little bite, it won't hurt you honey, and will make you a god."

    Eve does, and likes it and gives to Adam who also likes it, and viola, they discover that they forgot to get dressed that morning and were ashamed, took large leaves and covered their vitals, and hid themselves.

    WHERE'S ALL KNOWING, ALL SEEING GOD WHILE ALL THIS IS COMING DOWN?

    Yep, you guessed it, Along comes God who calls out, Adam where art thou?

    Adam comes forth, trembling and fearful with, "I was naked and hid myself". "The woman you gave me made me eat that apple", "etc", "etc", "etc".

    Sure looks like God did not keep his elect from sinning! Perhaps He wanted them to sin so that he could have his Son crucified on the Cross. Maybe HE even foreordained that man sin! Unless of course, you want to claim a forgetful God who forgot all about lucifer, et. al. Maybe God was busy and couldn't watch is creation. There's all kinds of excuses.

    Is God at fault for man sinning? Where did I say that? The evidence is pretty clear that God tested His created man, and that man failed the test. But was it really a test? Doesn't scripture talk about a book of life from the foundation of the world? How about a "Lamb of God" from the foundation of the world?

    One thing's sure, you cannot deny those facts are in SCRIPTURE!
     
  14. TCassidy

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    You see, there is your problem. Get your doctrine from the word of God, not the writings of men. Simple solution.
     
  15. icthus

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    Wes, I read you loud and clear. This still does not deal with the issue that God preordains all things that come to pass. Are you saying that God preordained the fall, and then it "grieves Him at His heart" (Gen 6:6), because of mans actions that He Himself preordains! If you ask me, this makes God to be not knowing what He is doing. He arranges that fall, man sins against God according to God's perfect plan, and then mans actions that God preordains, causes God grief!

    This is NOT that God of the Bible I personally know
     
  16. icthus

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    You see, there is your problem. Get your doctrine from the word of God, not the writings of men. Simple solution. </font>[/QUOTE]TCassidy, Is the doctrine that God preordains all things, which must include sin and evil, come from the Bible, or from the works of Calvinists? This nonsense is what is rightly seen as unbiblical heresy, and needs to be condemned as such
     
  17. Wes Outwest

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    Then what do you do with the "Facts" contained in the scripture?
     
  18. dianetavegia

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    If you think I'm a follower of Calvin, you've not read my responses very well! I am not a Calvinite!

     
  19. TCassidy

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    I didn't say you were. You talked about the "teachings" of Calvin. Who cares what Calvin taught? What the bible teaches is what we base our doctrine on.

    My response was based on your statement:

    That statement seems to overlook one of the biggest disagreements among Calvinists since the time of Whittingham and Beza, that being the order of God's actions regarding salvation, usually referred to as the Infra/Supra-lapsarian arguments.

    Infralapsarianism, a branch of Calvinism accepted by the vast majority of those who identity themselves as Calvinists, states that the order of God's actions were:

    1. creation of man
    2. permission of the Fall
    3. election, reprobation
    4. provision of Christ
    5. calling of elect

    Note #2 is permission of the fall. To say that God does not "give permission but preordains" is simply wrong and based on a lack of understanding of the position taken by the vast majority of all Calvinists. It is only the Supralapsarians, who are quite rare, who believe in double predestination and that God ordained all things including sin, the fall, and electing some people to reprobation.
     
  20. TCassidy

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    Neither one. It comes from two sources. A tiny minority of Calvinists who are Supralapsarian and the vast majority of anti-Calvinists who try to take what a few mistaken radicals say and make it appear that all Calvinists believe that way.
     

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